refugium finished

[Mike O'Brien]

here is a pic of my refugium finished. Dont mind the fish he is going back sunday.
15 gal
20lbs live sand
7 lbs live rock rubble
heater
prizm skimmer
reptiflo 250 feed pump
gravity back to main tank.
12 nassarius snails
3 turbo snails
4 types macro algae

[doctorted11323]

awesome fuge mike sorta like what i want to do...if not too much trouble could you tell me about plumbing...thx ted

[Mike O'Brien]

for plumbing I used 3/4" pvc to make a U-tube, an aquaclear 201 powerhead is used to keep the siphon. I use a reptiflo 250 to supply the fuge. the fure is 1 1/2" higher than the main tank.

[gregoryalln]

cool, is that a butterfly in your fuge?

[Mike O'Brien]

that was a pearl scale butterfly, I was trying him out in my tank, but he was eating some corals so I had to throw him in there untill I could bring him back.

[doobie]

Hey that looks good but I have 2 suggestions.

1) Get the turbos out of there! At least until you have a lot more algae in there. The Nassarius will eat algae too if there is nothing else around.

2) It's nice if you can have baffles to diffuse the current to keep too much stuff from getting sucked into the main tank. A common way to do this is use acrylic bulkheads with part cut out. You can also use fat pvc pipe with holes or slots drilled in it.

[Mike O'Brien]

snails dont eat macro algae, and if you've watched caulerpa grow you'll know that this tank will be full within a few months. also if you look in the first pic you can see the outflow tube with holes drilled in it. besides one om my main reasons for this fuge is to have pods flowing back into the tank. so whe try to baffle it off?

[doobie]

1) I wouldn't put turbos in a refugium until it was well established - you want microalgae in there too.

2) Holes drilled in the outlet do nothing to diffuse the water flow in your setup. So you will have a direct current going from inlet to outlet if nothing else is in the way and dead spots with very little circulation.

It's your refugium do whatever you want with it, but I assume this was posted in this forum to get feedback.

[Mike O'Brien]

I think baffles would be good for a sump style fuge, but for this type of application I see no benefits.

[Mike O'Brien]

ok so you think that without a baffle between an inlet and outlet, all the flow will go directly from one to the other.. that just doesn't happen, especially when the outlet is directed away from the inlet. as far as dead spots not only the feed pump but a skimmer rated for 90 gal(questionable) is mounted on a 15 gal tank so where are the dead spots.

[bkclay469]

I agree with the baffling idea but was a little confused with Doobie's comments. I think the pvc with holes in mike's setup does difuse the output but does not neccesarily circulate the tank. If you like it the way it is now, then add a powerhead (small) or a seahorse. As for the macro's, from what I've heard, they will be fine with or without microalgae but some species will compete for nutrients so the micro's shouldn't be allowed to overgrow the tank. I also don't see any reason for limiting the amount of things that flow between the tank. The more copepods and other things that get through the healthier your fish will be. As for the bad things, if there are any, they'll get through anyway.

[Mike O'Brien]

here is my thinking on that. I think the fuge should have low flow. because the main tank has 18 times tank volume for circulation detritus is kept in suspension. when it flows to the fuge the detritus can settle out and be consumed by the live sand and the macro algae.
the holes in the return are there to keep snails or plant material from clogging the return. I do not want to restrict or baffle the return because that would lessem the ammount of pods making the return trip.

[bkclay469]

I agree completly, a fuge should be low flow. I was only trying to say that if the flow was so low that you are getting big dead spots, a power head could help. have you heard of anyone keeping seahorses in a fuge? The conditions would be right, I just wonder if they would wipe out the pod population.

[Mike O'Brien]

I'm not sure, it would be cool though. I have alot of mysis shrimp in my tank and fuge.

[joanadam]

The mysis are probably too big for seahorses.
But thats cool, where did you get them to start a culture?

[Mike O'Brien]

the shrimp came from the lfs. hitchhikers.I was there this morning their tanks are full of them.
I bought a few red mangroves today for the fuge . Is it OK for the leaves to be under water like this

[bkclay469]

im pretty sure the leave need to be above the surface of the water or atleast pretty close.

[Ludwigia]

Get those mangroves high in the tank!!! The best thing would have been to build them a shelf halfway up with about 6" of sand. That's what I'm going to do, anyway. But for now, put them in a piece of styrofoam sticking half above and half below the water. The roots will grow down the water column into the sand. One of the coolest things I've seen is a large live rock in the middle of the roots. The roots grow over the rock, and into the sand. Float it high, and let the roots grow down, and use a piece of fishing line going across the tank 2 ways to keep it in one place. Most mangrove fuges are only about 12-14 inches deep, looks like you got a deeper one. No thoughts on this, only that the added water volume will do 2 things. One is to keep the system more stable, allowing you to keep more fish. The other is to cost more for dosing. Remember, more water volume = more chemicals. Also, I'd increase the sand bed to around 4-5". This will help with NNR (Natural Nitrate Reduction)

[Mike O'Brien]

I have them supported half way out of the water now. they were only like that for that pic. hopefully I will get some good root growth. here is a bad pic. as far as the sand I have a very well functioning DSB in my tank ,also the sand in the fuge is the oolitic type wich can sustain denitrification at smaller depths than usual. but thanks for your input. I got the mangroves because they look really cool and exotic, the fact that they will clean the water is just a bonus for me.
thanks again mike

[joanadam]

That is really a cool setup.

[Mike O'Brien]

thanks :P

[joanadam]

I know you've already expressed your opinion on the seahorses, but if you got that mangrove stuff to really go well it would be such a perfect setting for them. :D

[Mike O'Brien]

by the way this is how I supported the mangroves I used suction cups supporting a piece of flexible tubing that is sliced open, and a rubber band to hold up the plant untill the roots can support the plant. and joan my wife has always wanted seahorses so you never know, I do have room for another tank under this one. you've already got me thinking. good spot for a tank to produce food.

[joanadam]

I've have two wet dry trickle sump filters in my setup as you can see from my signature. I recently over the course of a month got rid of all the bio balls and converted them to refugiums in a way. The water flow is still way to much to really call them refugiums though. I just have sandbeds, LR, and caulerpa in them. After seeing your setup I'm seriously thinking about the side by side. That is really a cool concept. I've always wanted seahorses as well but never had the right enviroment for them and that seems like the perfect way to keep them. :D

[Mike O'Brien]

I'm glad you like the idea. i think something like this is to cool to be hidden somewhere. and the plumbing is very simple and cheap :wink:

[joanadam]

I was thinking about center piecing it next to my main :D

[Mike O'Brien]

Update:

[thomas1102]

hey mike, what kinda algeas do ya have in there. my next steps to get my fuge running are getting lr rubble, algea and build the cabnet for it to set on.

[Mike O'Brien]

I have grape, and feather caulerpa, and some kind of red hair algae, also the dreaded bubble algae. The fuge also has much more coralline than the main, I'm gussing due to the lower intensity lighting. Two red mangroves also.

[thomas1102]

whats the lighting schedule on the fuge. i want to run opposite the tank but alot of peope insist on 24 hr, which would drive my parents nuts

[Mike O'Brien]

the lights are on 24 hrs. It's like a night light. LOL

[Mike O'Brien]

Changed all the caulerpa out of the fuge. I finally got some chaetomorpha, and I added 4 more pounds of rubble.The ammount of mysid shrimp in there is unbelievable. There are swarms of them everywhere. I couldn't be happier with this setup.

[Nemo]

I take it that refugiums dont need high level lighting...just continuous lighting...what reason did you remove the caulerpa from the tank? And is the rock rubble to help with protection for your pods? I take it that the mysis shrimp eat these pods.

[Mike O'Brien]

No you dont need intensive lighting, but light can be a limiting factor for macro growth. I had better growth after adding another 15 watt fluorescent to my 40 watt 50/50's. They look nice, but dont put out alot of light that spurs algal growth. It doesn't have to be lit continuously, but doing so helps with the natural ph drop at nighttime. A dark period should disperse more zooplankton though, because they come out of hiding in the dark. I might be changing that soon.
Caulerpa is the bane of my existence. All the caulerpa I had started off in my main tank, and just appeared. I have battled long and hard to get rid of it, and am sick of it. Chaeto doesn't attach to rocks and substrate like caulerpa and it doesn't go asexual like caulerpa is known to do.
The rock is shelter for the pods. The mysid are just part of my pod population. The adults are visible, but too small to take a picture of, and the ammount of plankton they produce is quite surprising. The misid feed on phytoplankton right out of the water, and other tidbits they can get their claws on.

[chessmanmark]

This setup is terrific! Can you explain the plumbing again in detail for a novice. I've been thinking about a sump/refugium for my 29 gal. I thought a 10 gal would be enough, however I don't really need the sump. I don't mind the look of the heater and in-tank skimmer. I just would like the benefits of the refugium. My biggest concern is a flood so if I placed the refug as high as the display perhaps I wouldn't have to worry. I don't completely understand how the powerhead is used. I have a powerhead directly in a lift tube for my UG filter. Do you attach a hose and loop it back over to the refug? Also is there a water pump moving the water from one tank to the other? I would appreciate it if you could explain this step by step in detail.

[Mike O'Brien]

Ok there is a small 60 gph pump that is in the main tank. This pump is placed inside an surface skimmer box, but that is not necessary.The pump moves water to the refugium. From there water is returned through a u-tube that goes from the fuge to the main, atmospheric pressure keeps the levels of the two tanks relatively the same, but to acomplish this the u tube cant have any air bubbles in it, thats where I use the venturi from a powerhead to draw air from the top of the U-tube. You can also use an aqualifter vacuum pump, and actually I am getting one later today from NYFireman. It does the same thing continuosly removes any air that may enter the tube. The rest of the time it just pumps water back into the tank.
Because there is no siphon in the return, the refugium needs to be a bit higher than the main tank. Mine is 1 1/2 " higher. This way it is safer.
The good things about this system are that the return doesn't go through a pump that could damage some of the critters, and if the power goes out nothing at all happens, when it goes on the pump will remove the air from the u-tube and the system will again run.
I am going to miss this setup, I'm working on my new setup now and the fuge will be below the tank next to the sump.

[chessmanmark]

Thanks for the reply Mike. Your pretty handy with that camera of yours. If it is still available can I see a picture of the pump inside the display tank, or overflow box? What does that look like? Is it small? I understand the general concept now, however I'd like to see how it looks.

[Mike O'Brien]

These pics should give you a better idea.

[Ken668]

Mike, I've heard that if you counter-cycle the lights in your fuge with those in your main tank (one on while the other is off), you'll maintain most of your PH. And like you said, this dark period should help you with dispersion of your zooplankton.

- Ken

[Mike O'Brien]

Exactly, photosynthesis will help to keep the ph up by using CO2 and putting out O2. I still use 24 hrs, but the lights over the mangroves shuts off for a few hours every night. The fuge is so full of shrimp, I doubt having the lights off would make much of a difference. In theore it should help though.

[reeferdude]

I have a dwarf seahorse in my fuge and he has not depleted the pod population. Make sure to let the fuge become well established before adding one and if you are going to add more than one do it slowly to allow for the pods to repopulate.

[chessmanmark]

It's hard to judge the size of the pump. Questions - Does the water pump from the display tank suck up and lifeforms, i.e. snalls, fish, etc. 2) Looking at the overall aesthetic look of the tank does the pump take anything away from the frontal view. 3) How big is it? 4) Do you recommend any other pumps considering cost, size and strength?

[Mike O'Brien]

the pump is very small, it's only a 60 gph pump.
The box it's in isroughly 5 long 2 wide and 4 deep. Nothing alive gets stuck in there sometimes snails go in and out. The intake for the pump needs to be cleaned now and then. I have powerheads there anyway so you cant really see the box behind them. For this type of setup I wouldn't want to use a bigger pump.

[chessmanmark]

I conducted a google search and found the reptiflo on petking.com for $9. They said to use it only on an indoor freshwater application. Is this the same pump and I assume you have used it for some time now without any problems. Sounds simple enough. So then you hook the reptiflo up to some plastic hose? Do I have this right? I'm not sure about the venturi powerhead. I mean I have a venturi plug on my powerhead and it is attached to a short length of hose with a "breather" cap on top. You connect this to the PVC. How do you connect it so it stays airtight? And it is safe for the venturi plug/hose to suck water? Sorry if I seem a little thick on this concept I'm just trying to make sence of it all.

[Mike O'Brien]

I didn't know that I got a deal on 3 of them for 9 bucks, so no biggy. You might want to use a mini jet or a micro jet. Really any small pump will work.
As far as the venturi hookup, I took an airstone, and broke the stone apart to leave just the plastic part, I then used pvc cement to glue it in the hole. You then just stick the airhose on and connect it to the powerhead, or the aqualifter air pump. Mine usually doesn't pull water through the airline, just air every now and then. The aqualifter will pump water and it just goes back into the tank.

[chessmanmark]

Thanks for being so helpful Mike. I think I get the general gist now. At first I didn't realize this post was four pages long. I had to go back and read it a few times. Your pictures were very helpful. I'm in the planning stage now using your project as my model. I still have two more questions.
1) I assume you have to cycle the refugium before it is hooked up to the display tank. Is this correct?
2) I only had one physics class and it puzzles me about the return. You say the refugium is 1 1/2 inches higher than the display and gravity feeds the return. I don't understand how the water goes through the PVC. Wouldn't it just spill over the side of the refugium tank? Do you have to prime the PVC to get it started? And what happens during water changes when the water level drops? I understand that the powerhead will suck out the air but it seems too large a job to get the system flowing.

PS - for anyone who was confused by the reptiflo 250. It is for reptiles, thus the name reptiflo. You can find it in the reptile section of your pet store. Be careful though, my LFS charges $15 for it and I saw it on-line for $9. I'm sure it can be purchased cheaper.

[Mike O'Brien]

Everything i used was cured, but it is a good idea to cycle it seperatley before adding it to the tank. I'm not exactly sure but I believe it is just atmospheric pressure keeping the tank from overflowing. There is no real siphon because the water doesn't drop. The powerhead easily pulls the air from the tube to get the flow going, no need to prime anything.
When I do a water change I shut off the pump supplying the fuge drain water from the fuge, add the new, and turn the pump back on.

[chessmanmark]

Mike, I have another question about the reptiflo pump. How noisy is it? Right now my tank is in the basement, but eventually I would like to put it in the living room. My whisper air pump is pretty noisy, however the fan on my PC drowns that out. I also get a gurgle from my UG lift tube. How do you keep a tank in a major room quiet?

[Mike O'Brien]

Those pumps are silent.Right now my tank has no sump so you dont hear anything but my exhaust fan when my lights are on. My new tank will have a sump, and I have already built a durso standpipe to keep the overflow silent. If your sump is noisy with the skimmer and all you can always insulate the stand with foam insulation to keep the noise down, but it shouldn't be that loud.

[Mike O'Brien]

Just upgraded to a 250 watter for my tank, so I hung the old 175 pendant over the fuge :shock: now my living room is a little brighter 8) Looks awesome though.

[thomas1102]

u can make ur fuge into a prop tank now.

[Mike O'Brien]

I'm not sure I'll be able to use this for long, my fuge is going into a cabinet so heat would be an issue I'll use a 65 watt LOA fixture then.
Here is a better pic
http://www.hostedimage.com/usr/1033/DSCF0417.JPG

[chessmanmark]

I have found this post very helpful. This past weekend I went to Home Depot and bought about $12 worth of lumber and made a stand, 4 inches higher than my display tak on which I placed a 20 gallon long tank. I built a shelf under this for a 10 gallon QT tank, and under this I am able to store a couple of buckets. I also picked up 20 lbs of live sand and the repti flo 250 pump. I have my original lighting fixture that came with my 29 gallon display tank that is the same length as the 20 gallon long. I also bought a couple of Walmart Lights of America Bright bulbs for additional lighting to place over the 20 gallon which will be my new refugium. This weekend I will go pick up some macro algae. Thanks Mike!
There are two mom and pop stores around here that sell many different types of caulerpa. Which is best? I was thinking about the razor kind. Also you mentioned chaetomorpha. Why do you like this better and where do I find it?

[Mike O'Brien]

Sounds great I'm glad I was able to help you. For an update, I am now using the aqualifter vaccum pump to keep the siphon going, thanks to NYFireman :lol: . This thing really is powerfull, and draws a constant stream of water from the U-Tube. It can pump 3 vertical feet. They do recommend a filter for it, so if you go that way you know what you need. I still need to get one.
I'm gonna miss having the refugium on the side of my tank. Oh and BTW I feel I have a very good chance that my refugium will be featured in Novembers Advanced Aquarist's magazine, so check that out.
Here is a pic of the aqualifter in action

[Mike O'Brien]

Oh yeah as far as the algae I have feather and grape caulerpa, and chaetomorpha. I think the chaeto is best because it doesn't attach to the rocks, and is not supposed to go asexual . It's like a big green brillo pad, the pods love it. The others I cant get rid of. Far as I know a single cell left behind will grow a new algae. Those I just thin frequently to keep from going asexual. I also use an extended photoperiod. I know that with terrestrial plants usually a photoperiod of 12 or more hours will prevent flowering, so it may be the same for the algae.

[chessmanmark]

I bought some rock last weekend that looked like it had cheato on it. The guy who owned the store didn't know what it was and gave it to me with the rock. If I can figure out how to shrink my picture file size I will upload a picture of it. It looks like cheato with some stiff grass next to it. I also have this "feathery" looking stuff on another rock (although its not like the feather caulerpa you show in the picture) I bought it the same store and it is starting to spread in my tank on that one piece of rock. I may have to move it to the new refug. if it continues to do well.
I was wondering about the skimmer in the refug. You see I am worried that the reptiflo won't circulate the 20 gallon refug enough, however if I put the skimmer in the tank won't it suck up all the pods? I was thinking about putting a cheap hang on the back power filter on the refug without a cartride in the filter. Use it strickly for circulation. Any other ideas on stimulating the circulation of the tank in a useful manner for a refug?

[Mike O'Brien]

I've got another small powerhead and thw skimmer. Dont worry about the skimmer and pods I have pods living in my skimmer. Sounds good so far.

[leheath]

I am reviving this thread and hopefully someone will help me out. I was refered to it on another board and am trying to copy the setup for my 20g nano with 5g fuge side by side. Well, I thought I had done everything correctly, turned it all on, and promptly flooding the kitchen when the fuge overflowed!

The only difference between my setup and the one shown is that the tank is higher than the fuge so I reverse all the plumbing. In addition, the fuge is ~6" lower than the tank, rather than 1.5" - is this the problem - earlier in the thread it says the atmospheric pressure keeps the levels the same, but perhaps this doesn't work if the height difference is too much??

Anyone able to help me out?

Thanks :)

[Mike O'Brien]

I'd say your right, they really do need to be relatively the same height. Can you post a pic of the setup, so I can see it. What other board were you referred from. I'm sure we can get it working for you.

[chessmanmark]

I think that height requirement is crucial. The difference between mine was more like 4 inches and my display always ran a little low. The water evaporated from the display and not the refugium. The other component that I suspect is a factor in this type of set up is the diameter of the PVC. I used 1", However I believe Mike used 3/4 and I always thought that may have had something to do with it. I was also wondering about reversing the entire system as my new display is the old refugium which sits higher than the finished stand, which is empty now. I'm sorry about your flood. I was extremely worried about that in the beginning but it never really became a concern for the 6 months or so I ran my system based on Mike's design.

One last thought. Did you drill a whole in the PVC and is the venturi working properly? If the tubing or hole in the PVC clogs it could affect the flow in the U-Tube.

[Mike O'Brien]

With a 6" drop, you probably got a true siphon going, thats why the tank flooded. If you want to leave the setup that way, you can use a small external overflow box on the tank, and that would only drain as much as is being pumped in from the fuge.

[leheath]

Thanks for all your replies. It was actually you, Mike, who referred me to it on Reef Central when I asked about side-by-side setups! I think you are definitely right, I got a true siphon going, which I now realize is not what I am trying to achieve. I spoke to someone today at our local reef club who has a similar setup and he also discovered if you have too much drop, you flood things! :) Anyway, I have decided to raise the 5g tank approximately the same height as the display tank by building a small box for it to sit on (and I can store stuff underneath). I think the fuge will still be slightly lower than the tank, so the pump will be in the fuge and then it will drain back from the display via the "siphon tube" that the aqualifter pump is attached to.

I'll let you know how it goes when I get the box for the 5g fuge to sit on finished, but I am sure it will work fine once the fuge is raised.

Thanks for the help and ideas,

Lorraine :)

[Mike O'Brien]

Sure I remember, I thought I recognized the qoute in your sig. Good luck, it sounds like you have a plan. Let us know how you make out, and Welcome to the Reef Lounge. :lol:

[Nodbugger]

I'm thinking about doing the same thing for my tank.

I also plan on getting a UV sterilizer. I'm wondering If I can have the outflow from the UV sterilizer go into the refugium? Or should I just skip the UV sterilizer for right now?

[Mike O'Brien]

That will work, it's up to you if you want it or not, I doubt it will have much of an effect on the pod's.
Too bad most of the pic's in this thread are missing now, I dont have them anymore.

[Mike O'Brien]

I'll repost what i do have

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/Mike0101/plumbingdescription.jpg

[cnrcool]

Mike, I am confused. I thought you did not believe in macro algaes such as calurpa? Did something change or was there some confusion on my part? BTW I like the plumbing setup with the gravity feed. How many gallons per hour are you turning in this?

[Mike O'Brien]

if you read the post you'll see that i changed to chaetomorpha. I don't beleive in caulerpa, mostly due to some losses after large section's of caulerpa going asexual in my tank. Chaeto is a much better choice, it doesn't disintegrate or go asexual. It doesn't attach to the substrate, it's a great home for pod's to reproduce,pull's twice the nutrient's from the water compared to caulerpa and grow's epiphytic matter on the underside wich is a great food for the tank.

[Mike O'Brien]

That setup was 60 gallon per hour through the refugium.

[Zoo]

Is there any reason that you couldn't have the Fuge just a few inches "below" the display tank? It seems that is the only way I can have a Fuge.

[Mike O'Brien]

No, with the right plumbing, you can have it anywhere you want. I've got a twenty gallon tank that is drilled in the back with a 10 gallon tank behind it, both are on the same table, but obviously the 10 is shorter.

The setup in this post was done without a traditional overflow, so for this particular setup the fuge deeded to be higher.

If you give me some detail's about you're plan's I can help you more.

[Zoo]

Thanks a LOT for the reply!!
From the floor to the top of my Display Tank, 75 Gal. is just a little over 50". From the floor to the top of the 20 Gal. is 40". I would have a 10" drop from the Display Tank to the Fuge. I would really like to use a flexable hose like you did without all the PVC, if possible. I think I would have to have an over flow on the Display Tank and siphon from there to the the Fuge. I am trying to figure out a way to do it without a flood. I would like to put my Coralife Skimmer in it, and use my Skilter Filter for Filter Media. I don't use the skimmer in the Skilter. If you need any more information please let me know. I am really excited about trying this.

[Mike O'Brien]

That would function like a normal sump. As long as you use a quality overflow box there should be no flooding issues. Probably something like this would be good.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y157/Mike0101/20galfugesump.jpg

[Zoo]

If I am thinking correctly then, I would siphon off the over flow box on the DT to the Fuge. What size pump would be good to return the water back to the DT? Where can I buy the U-Tubes? How could I have water going into the Fuge on the left end and returning from the right end. That would creat flow through the Fuge. Looks like that would have to be done with PVC running along the back of the Fuge and then up to the DT. Is this correct, or could I do this with Flex Tubing? I will probably have to use bevels to trap the little critters from going into the main tank. I have some coming to fit a 20 Gal. tank.

[Mike O'Brien]

Marinedepot.com will have everything you need. I'd go with something around 500 to 700 gph. The rest can be done in many different way's. Set like in the diagram there is flow from left to right. If you need more, you can use a powerhead in there.

[Zoo]

What kind of over flow box do you recommend, or can I make one? I have umteen filter boxes. Maybe I can make one out of one of those. Hubby says he will use PVC for the flow back and forth. I can't hardly wait to get this going.
Sure do want to thank you for all the help!!

[David_P]

You can use old 2 liter soda bottles to plant your mangroves. Cut the top and bottoms off, and make a raised planter using sand and LR Rubble. I did this in my fuge.

The picture below is a 75 gallon Sump/Refugium set up in my basement. It feeds a 26 gallon bowfront display on the first floor. I have two breeding pair of H. Reidi Seahorses in there. They give me fry every two weeks!

[Zoo]

Looks like a great idea. My Fuge is on hold at the moment. My 75 Gal. sprung a leak and I have Rubbermade Tubs everywhere. I did have a 45 Gal. to use as a spare. All my Fish and Corals are in there. I am hoping my DT tank doesn't have much od a cycle when I get it fixed. Always something to go wrong, it seems!

[morticia1197]

i need to know how to set up my pluming so i can get my fuge tank hooked to my main tank

[Mike O'Brien]

Try to make a diagram of the setup so we can see what's going on.

[gsxunv04@aol.com]

what purpose do seahorses serve in a refugium besides being cool to look at and eating copepods,is there any good served by them added to a system? i also thought that they needed little flow in the tank and macroalgaes and refugiums need high flow rates so wouldnt the seahorse get stressed out? if seahorses go together with refugiums is there a minimal refugium size(gallons) for a seahorse/pair?

[Mike O'Brien]

Actually they defeat the purpose of a refugium .

[Dizale]

Not only that, they require cooler temperatures than reef tanks so its often hard to have them in your refuge. You don't want a lot of flow in your refuge either. Hope this helps.

[gsxunv04@aol.com]

ok thanks for clearing the whole seahorse issue up. i have always wanted seahorses but i heard they have to be in a species only or housed only with pipefish. but now onto the topic of how much flow a refugium needs. if we want low flow 600gph is pretty higfh for a 75 gallon or smaller tank. and what about macroalgaes like chaeto that require high flow? is this all untrue and can i have a low flow fuge? do baffles help calm down the flow or is there different methods of baffling/lack thereof the increase/decrease flow through the sump/refugium?

[Mike O'Brien]

The desirable macro algae does better with high flow. The undesirable types thrive in low flow. So in a low flow refugium you'll end up being choked with cyano. You want there to be good water movement inside the refugium, but that does not mean that you need a high turnover rate. The one in this thread only used a 60 gph pump to move water between the two tanks, but there was additional water movement inside the fuge to make up for that. In my sump now I just flow all the water through it so I don't use additional pumps.

[gsxunv04@aol.com]

cool. thanks.

[Europa]

do baffles help calm down the flow or is there different methods of baffling/lack thereof the increase/decrease flow through the sump/refugium?
The baffles just separate compartments (intake, fuge, and return) and are designed in a way to prevent microbubbles from getting into the return section and back to the display.

[gsxunv04@aol.com]

i have seen two ways of setting baffles; 1) a 3 baffle system with the last one slanted as an under baffle and 2) a 7 baffle sysytem with a few more under baffles in the sump/fuge. is there any advantage to the 7 baffle system like the water flowing over,under,then over a small baffle(just enough to hold the DSB) and across the fuge inseted of just dropping over a baffle into the fuge from the skimmer section? if there is now real advantage i will just do the 3 baffle to save half the price spent on glass baffles.

[Mike O'Brien]

IMO you only need one set of two baffles, one over and one under. That's the bubble trap, and you only need one before the return pump. The rest is just a waste of space IMO.

[FishTankFreddie]

wow this seems like the place for really good fuge questions, maybe we can keep this thread going for ever seeing as it started in 04. so heres mine.

i have a reef ready 29g. so its got the three compartments in the back. thats the overflow. in the middle compartment i have my skimmer and the third my pump into the tank. i want to set up a fuge with my 10g that i have lying around (being used to heat new water). i have pods in my DT but i dont know if there is enough (i want to get a dragonet soonish) so i want my fuge to allow the pods to get into the DT. so if i put my fuge below the DT that means i need a pump to get the water from the fuge to the DT which means to pods make it, right?

second question/comment...if the fuge is below the DT then i just prime a pipe from the DT to get the water flowing?

third q...since i have the skimmer in the middle section of the overflow where would i take the water from to go to the fuge? and where would i return the water. should i do all this before the skimmer?
i attached some pics of the skimmer location/set up.

[gsxunv04@aol.com]

get a 20 long and move everything down below, is what i would do

[FishTankFreddie]

sorry, that doesn't answer any of my questions. not trying to be rude or offend

[gsxunv04@aol.com]

ok well i was telling you what would be the best way to go about what your asking but since that didnt work maybe this will.

if you want a fuge for pods i would recomend doing the ten gallon besides the DT and raise it 1.5", and send the pods back through a u-tube rather than a water pump, which can harm the pods. which defaeats the purpose of the fuge, you want it for the natural food source correct?

if that doesnt fit your fancy then you need to get an overflow box to get the water from the DT to the ten gal. below the DT.

i would just take water from the skimmer section and send it back to the return section.

[gsxunv04@aol.com]

if your tank is reef ready shouldnt it have holes drilles in it for bulkheads to drain below?

[Mike O'Brien]

What's a DT ?

With that tank, you're going to have problems using an overflow box.

[gsxunv04@aol.com]

im pretty sure he means display tank

[Mike O'Brien]

LOL. I'm such a noob

[FishTankFreddie]

well i was trying to plan this out and even if i put it above the dt then the return would still just go into the second part of my overflow and go through a pump into the tank so it wouldnt even matter that the return wasnt going though a pump. so my plan right now is to put it below. have my skimmer in the first partition, the fuge then two baffles then pump. like normal. but my question now is could i just use the pump from the overflow in the fuge and just have a tube going from the pump to the dt. so this would mean that the second and third section of the overflow would be empty. or i guess i could just buy another pump. would a mag2 at 3ft vertical would be at 170gph create enough flow through the fuge. cause with the baffles it would be pulling the water from the left side through the fuge and into the pump. are the via-aqua pumps anygood. i could get the 370 rated. also the plumbing from the return pump to the tank can it be tubing not hard pipe?

[gsxunv04@aol.com]

why not send the water from the fuge directly into the main tank? that where you want the pods to go correct? i would send water from after your skimmer section(return) to the fuge, and a u-tube back to the main tank. ide get a better pump than 170 gph, and yes return pipe can be flexible or hard

[FishTankFreddie]

yeah i guess i was just thinkin if i used the pump from my tank it wouldnt be enough but i could shell out for a better pump

[FishTankFreddie]

i just had an idea. since i already have a place for the skimmer in the back of the tank in the overflow and if i get another pump. i can just move the tube from my pump to feed the refuge and then get another pump to go to the display that way i can have a much bigger fuge. does it matter if i use a pump to feed and return instead of using gravity. that way if the power goes out both the pumps will just shut off and there will be no water movement anywhere

[Mike O'Brien]

That does not work. If you have the refugium above the tank, just pump the water up there and have an overflow on the fuge for it to come back. I'd just drill a hole in the side and use a bulkhead to attach the return plumbing.

IMO it does not matter where you place the pickup and return.

[FishTankFreddie]

i dont trust myself enough to drill my tank. and i think im going to have to put it under my tank so i will use the grav to feed. do i need the ventri tube on the siphon to do this? my powerhead doesnt have one of thoes are there any other easy ways to do it

[Europa]

Even if you add a fuge, a 29 won't be big enough for a dragonette. It will quickly deplete the pod population and slowly starve. If you really want one, you'll have better chances if you upgrade to >100g.

[Mike O'Brien]

i dont trust myself enough to drill my tank. and i think im going to have to put it under my tank so i will use the grav to feed. do i need the ventri tube on the siphon to do this? my powerhead doesnt have one of thoes are there any other easy ways to do it

You need to buy an overflow box for what you want to do. You can only use a U tube if the two tanks are side by side.

[FishTankFreddie]

well the main reason for the fuge for me will be reducing nitrates. i am just trying to work with what i got as i dont believing in buying something if i already have it. i must not be understanding the plumbing quite enough. what all is needed (physics wise, equipment wise) to plumb a refugium? i tend to have to scale all of the info down cause of my 29g and having not owned a bigger or not reef ready tank.

[gsxunv04@aol.com]

i will explain the simple concept of refugium/sump(below DT) for instance, with you 29 gallon get a 600 gph overflow and a 400-500 gph return pump, just as long as the pump doesnt exceed the overeflow capabilities you will be in business. you can put check (one way) valves after the return pump so water wont flow back when the power cut off or drill some holes 1/4" under the DT tank water surface in the return piping. the overflow box's prefilter box has set screws on it so you dial it in to say 1/4" below the water surface and that all the water that can be drained into the sump/fuge when the power goes out. likewise the pump will cut back on filling the DT 1/4" and then start to overflow back into the sump where it gets pumped back. it is really a simple process, just find pics of peoples setups and how they are working. watch this video, it may help with the general understanding of how an overflow box works.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-zVGwdRVHU4

[Mike O'Brien]

Sumps for Reef Tanks

http://www.reeflounge.com/showthread.php?t=22009

Refugiums for Dummies

http://www.reeflounge.com/showthread.php?t=22009

[FishTankFreddie]

but i have a built in overflow. so im supposed to match the flow rate of my overflow for the return pump? here is an attached image of the cube. except i dont have the media filther and instead of the bioballs i have the skimmer. and the pump is rated at 243gph (its a pic of the smaller one)

[Mike O'Brien]

You have got to start over . The thinking here is all wrong. Read the links I just posted.

Your built in overflow will have nothing to do with the refugium. You do not have to match the pump to the overflow, though it can't be too powerfull. On the average you can use a pump that is rated 200 to 300 gph more than the overflow due to losses from the plumbing.

[FishTankFreddie]

ok. so i cant just use a u pipe from the back of my tank? there is no room for a hob overflow. so my other option is to do what? and on a side note. what is the point of a bulkhead other that not going over the top of the tank? sorry if im irritating but i thought i had this figured out and i guess i really dont.

[gsxunv04@aol.com]

thatd be fine

[FishTankFreddie]

ok. here is my drawing. if i understand the concept of a hob overflow would this not do the same thing. and how do i figure out what the flow rate is to match a pump?

[FishTankFreddie]

this guy made a hang on fuge and pretty much did what im talking about except above the display. the drawing i made the u tube after the skimmer.
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/nano-reefs/14853-skimmer-refugium-mods.html

[Mike O'Brien]

Thing is that we are bound by the laws of Physics on this planet. That HOB is nothing at all like what you are proposing.

A hole in the side of the tank will allow only the water that is fed to it to overflow. What you have there will drain the water out until the siphon breaks and then it will stop working. Gravity is pulling down on things not up.

[FishTankFreddie]

so the only reason it wont work is because the u tube is too tall. with the hob water flows from the tank and through a u-tube over the edge of the tank just to go down a tube to the fuge. with mine the water flows into the back. why will my design drain the water. would the pump not keep the water level

[Mike O'Brien]

With the HOB model, you are pumping water into it and it overflows that same amount back into the tank. That's what I meant by drilling the side of the tank and adding a bulkhead so you could have that drain back to your tank. That's when you were saying you would put it above the tank.

With it under the tank, that U-tube, once you got it running, would act as a siphon and quickly drain the water from the area it is in. The pump will not be able to keep up with it. You have nothing there to regulate how much water it drains like you would with an overflow design. An overflow does not use a siphon to drain the water in it, it just uses gravity. Only what is pumped into the tank will go through the overflow. The overflow in your tank is a whole different animal. You have to just block that part out of your mind.

[FishTankFreddie]

oh ok. so the siphon would be too strong. can an overflow be made with one side lower than the other or would that be the same thing? or maybe close off the overflow built in basically building a hob overflow out of whats there cause i dont think a bought one would fit like this. and then either send the return back to the second chamber or put the skimmer in the fuge

[Mike O'Brien]

If you want the fuge to be lower than the display you either have to buy a hob overflow or drill a hole in the back of your tank. I know you want to make something work with what you have there, but it's just not going to work.

Why not just get a HOB fuge, like the guy in the link ?

[FishTankFreddie]

cause i dont have 200 dollars. but i do have a 10g and some plumbing. i also wanted a bigger fuge than the whole three gallons from the hob one. i spose i could just build a hob fuge

[Mike O'Brien]

Well ten gallon tanks are only $10. Why not just try cutting a hole in it. It's pretty easy to do with a dremel.

[FishTankFreddie]

yeah, i think im going to try to pull my tank and stand (which is a big spool) forward enough to fit the stand for the 10g behind it. so if i put the tank above then i will usa the u tube return right? is the aqua lifter just used to start the siphon? what kind of dremel bit would i use to cut a hole?

[Mike O'Brien]

It depends. With the U-tube between the two tanks, it's going to try to equalize and have the same level in both tanks. It works if the two tanks are relatively the same height, but if one tank is too high, you'll run into problems without the overflow.

Aqua lifter starts, and maintains the siphon, but if you drill a hole in the tank, you don't need that. The water will just spill back into the other tank.

Dremel makes a bit for cutting glass. That would be the one.

[FishTankFreddie]

ok so i pulled off the move. this was the main thing i was trying to avoid cause i didnt think it would move. i had to use a tow strap and my roomate to tug it forward. with the stand and the tank is an inch and a half about the display. so then the desired setup would be the two baffles or i guess i need the water level in the fuge completly full like yours in the begining of this post. i also have the repti-flo 250 to feed the fuge.

[Mike O'Brien]

Sounds good. I still recommend cutting a hole in the ten gallon so the water can just flow back to the DT. That would be the best way to go. The U-tube will work though. You'll need the Aqualifter if you do it that way. Again, the powerhead venturi will work, but the Aqualifter is a much more safe choice.

[FishTankFreddie]

cool. thanks for being patient with me. so if i drill the tank do i need to make the little section for it like the one in the link

[Mike O'Brien]

You can just buy a strainer that fits into the bulkhead.

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~idProduct~FT8577.html

[FishTankFreddie]

ok last questions. whats the difference in the bulkheads? if i get the 3/4in bulkhead is that the diameter of the hole i need to drill? and should i set it up so that the actual water level is 1.5in above the dt and the top of the bulkhead .25in below the water line? oh and do you have a recommendation on a drill bit i don't know whether i want to use my air tools or just my drill.

[gsxunv04@aol.com]

air tools =too much power for glass work. use a drill/dremel, and use a long and slow process