Ich Prevention.... Cheap, Quick, Efffective Method?

[ES13Raven]

I've been reading a lot on Ich.... Different methods and medications etc.

But for someone who can't setup a Quarantine Tank, is there a cheap and easy method of preventing Ich in your tank when introducing new fish?

I've heard of things like starting the fish out with a Freshwater dip with the correct PH and correct temp for prevention.... is this effective? If so, how long do you keep the fish in there etc.?

What about a freshwater dip with the right amount of Copper or Greenex?

What can you do if all you have access to is a couple of 5g buckets?

[steve1s]

What prevents you from setting up a QT even if temporary?

Cheers
Steve

[reeferdude]

Fresh water dips will help not 100% effective but they will help. Just watch the fish for signs of stress. Soaking the food in garlic, vitamin c, and zoe or some other vitamins will help by boosting the fishes natural immunity and the garlic will help to repel the parasites. I use kick-ick and have had a good success rate. Hyp-salinity is also an option but please do your homeowrk on this method, I have never used it. There are some good posts on this in the forum.

[Terry B]

There is no substitute for quarantine. You could use a 5 gallon bucket as a quarantine tank if the fish is small.
Terry B

[PVsPlayHouse]

Every time I put a new fish in my tank I use garlic for a couple days. I would not do a Fresh water dip when you first get a fish, it put a lot of stress on the fish and it could get Ick anyway. Fish can carry Ick and when they are stressed it come out. The Fish will go through enough stress being put into a new tank, why add to it.

Now if the fish come down with Ick when it is in your tank then I would do the dip.

With the fresh water dip you have to make shore that the water is the same Temp and pH as your tank. I would leave the fish in the fresh water no longer then 15 mins. The fish will not look to good but don't get worried he will be fine.

[Terry B]

Sorry to disagree, but fish do NOT produce ich. Ich is a parasite that must be introduced into the aquarium. It is most often imported because people fail to properly quarantine. If the parasite is not in your aquarium then the fish cannot get ich no matter how much they are stressed. If the parasite is in your aquarium then the fish are probably going to get infected without any stress at all.
Terry B

[PVsPlayHouse]

I agree that Ich parasite can be introduced by new arrivals of fish, but it could also be dormant in the aquarium itself. Healthy fish can live with a balanced host–parasite relationship for a long time. The healthier the fish the more difficult it becomes for the parasite to re-produce, which in turn keeps their population under control.

New arrivals with a weak and unprepared immune system are extremely susceptible for the parasite and are ideal victims for parasitic infection.

The unexpected appearance of Ich without new arrivals is usually caused by deteriorating water parameters which weaken the fish’s immune system.

Excess nutrients, nitrates, fluctuating pH, ammonia, low dissolved oxygen content and other stress causing factors will lower the fish’s’ immune system and may lead to an outbreak which could have been avoided by good aquarium maintenance.


Some people have no room for a QT. There are other ways to keep it under control. Besides what was listed you could raise your Temp in your tank slowly to 85 or 86'F and this will make Ich life span shorter. I would also get a UV sterilizer this will kill any free floating Ich.

[Terry B]

The life cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans has been studied extensively and no dormant stage has ever been found. Some people may think that the tomont or reproductive stage is dormant but it is not. A system can be completely cleared of ich parasites by removing the fish for 30+ days, starving the parasite out. Healthy fish are susceptible to infection with ich and undue stress is by no means a prerequisite to infection. Fish that are perfectly healthy and not stressed can still get ich. Fish do not have an innate immunity to ich and acquired immunity can only be obtained post infection, even then, it is usually only partial.
The unexpected appearance of ich is caused by the presence of the parasite in the system. No amount of stress can cause ich if the parasite is not in the system. If the parasite is in the system then no stress is required for infection. Stress has not even been mentioned as a factor when infecting fish with ich in scientific trials. IMO, anyone that does not have a quarantine tank cannot properly care for the animals. Would you buy a dog if you couldn’t take care of it right?
Reducing and preventing stress in fish is all well and good. However, immune function at its highest level does not prevent infection with some types of pathogens. You simply cannot classify all pathogens into one clump and assume that they all behave in the same way, because it is simply not true.
Can a fish be a carrier of ich for a long time? Yes and no, a fish that is infected and has some level of partial immunity can sustain a small population of ich parasites in the system for a time. Place one fish in the aquarium that does not share this immunity and you have a full-blown outbreak. The thing to keep in mind is that ich can be eliminated from a system and the fish. Then the entire mess could have been prevented by quarantining new fish BEFORE they go into the display.
Terry B

[PVsPlayHouse]

Can a fish be a carrier of ich for a long time? Yes and no, a fish that is infected and has some level of partial immunity can sustain a small population of ich parasites in the system for a time. Place one fish in the aquarium that does not share this immunity and you have a full-blown outbreak.
Terry B

That's what I was saying but, Stress is a cause because what it does to an immune system. When you are under a lot of stress it lowers you immune system and you can get sick easier. Have you ever bin under a lot of stress and gotten sick from it. I know I have.

Also that fish that you are putting into your tank Does not have to come down with Ich. If the fish is a healthy fish he will not contract Ich from the carrier. But if that fish is under a lot of stress his immune system will be low and yes he will get Ich very fast because he has no means of fighting it off because of his weaken state.
PV

[Terry B]

Stress is not a cause unless the fish have previously been infected with ich. A fish that has never had ich before cannot be immune to it no matter how healthy it is. They only develop acquired immunity AFTER becoming infected and most fish do not develop any immunity at all. Think of it like chicken pocks, nobody is immune to it until after they have had it once. With Chicken pocks, people develop full acquired immunity only after they have been sick once. Fish can only develop some level of acquired immunity to ich AFTER they have had it once. Even then, most fish don’t develop any immunity to it. You are generalizing and making all infections behave in the same way when they do not. Ich is an obligate parasite that cannot survive without infecting fish or it starves to death.
I also disagree that a healthy fish will not come down with ich. This is contrary to scientific evidence that indicates that perfectly healthy unstressed fish ARE susceptible to infection. Maybe you are just saying what someone else told you. I will say again that the immune system has little to do with combating a first infection with ich. Boney reef fish do NOT have innate immunity to ich, which is what you are suggesting. Do you understand the difference between innate and acquired immunity?
Now, IF a fish already has a low level infection and they have a partial (not full) acquired immunity to ich then stress can cause the infection to get worse. However, these fish are infected already. Once the population level of parasites increases in the aquarium then the other fish will get infected also. In an aquarium, most fish will die before they develop enough acquired immunity to survive infection unless you intervene with an effective method of treatment.
Terry B

[PVsPlayHouse]

We are not on the same page, I am talking about an immune system and you are talking about an immunity they are two different things. A fishes Immune system has to be strong to fight off an attack from Ich. If it has a strong enough Immune system to fight it off then the fish will be able to get an IMMUNITY to ICH. But most fish cannot since most fish get Ich when they are in a weaken state. (Stress)

Since you want to talk about Immunity to Ich (We have bin talking about Ich this hole time). no other parasite that a fish my get. And you are up on scientific facts. I guess.
Hears some Research that was done on ICH (Ichthyophthirius multifiliis)

http://www.vet.uga.edu/mmb/mmbhome/labpages/Dickerson/research/index.html

This was done by The Lab For the study Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. You can read all about Ichthyophthirius multifiliis hear.

But unless you are a scientist this is all opinion and it is nice to hear other people Opinion on these boards, that is what they are hear for.

QT Tanks are great in your Opinion. That's fine with me you are in tittle to it. But there are other ways to care of Ich. If you get it in your tank.

This article is interesting as well.
http://www.algone.com/ich.htm

A research study on how Stress affects fish to get Ich easier.
http://www-heb.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/congress/2002/Stress/DAVIS.pdf

Im done talking about this If you want to get in the last word that is fine. But my point is that there is many way to deal with Ich and you can do things in your tank to make shore you don't get Ich. Not just using a QT.
PV

[Terry B]

I get the distinct feeling that you are upset and that is the reason that you don’t want to discuss this anymore. Can’t we have an intellectual discussion without getting upset unless we agree on every point? After all, isn’t that what a discussion forum is about?
Thanks for the links. Unfortunately, the first link did not work. The article in the second link is better than many I have read. However, I have to say that some of it is not completely accurate. In particular the statement: The three day duration of the tomite stage is the only stage in which the parasite is vulnerable and can be treated with medication. Tomite is the stage that describes the daughter cells inside the tomont or reproductive stage. Once the tomonts hatch they then become the theront stage not tomites. Theronts cannot survive for more than 48 hours without finding and attaching to a host fish. They cannot survive three days as that article suggested and most strains of ich die within 24 hours if they don’t find a host. On top of that, the theronts quickly lose their infectivity after just 6 hours of hatching. Too bad the article does not include any references as support and I did not see the name of the author.
Ichthyophthirius multifiliis is not related to Cryptocaryon irritans so most of what is known about one is irrelevant to the other. These two parasites are taxonomically distant. It should be noted that every author of every book that I know of published about our hobby recommends quarantining all new fish. Since they are in 100% agreement on quarantine I consider this to be a significant fact. All public aquariums religiously practice quarantine as a preventative measure.
I am quite familiar with the subject of stress in fish having authored a dozen published works on the subject.
If you are interested in reading some other articles that talk about stress, immune function and Cryptocaryon irritans then please read these links written by yours truly. www.Adancedaquarist.com Look in the November issue for part one of a five part series on ich and you will find an article about stress, immune function and an immune system stimulant in the September issue. If you change your mind and are willing to discuss this subject with me further then I would be happy to continue conversing with you. Either way, there are no ill feelings on my part.
Terry B

[PVsPlayHouse]

There are no Ill feeling.
QT tanks are great and everyone recommend them but some people just don't have the room.
I just had Ich in my tank.
I just got ride of it by raising my temp to 86 and feeding my fish garlic. I raised the temp for a 48 hour period and then lowered it to 78 for 24 hour then raised it one more time just to make shore it was all gone in the tank and my Hippo tang survived the attack that I just got. I would have never got the fish out my tank so I had to treat in the tank. Since I have a reef I would never put any Meds in the tank. I just dont trust them for a reef tank. So I look so other ways to get ride of it.

I would like to read about it more please repost that link, it does not work.
Thank you
PV

[Terry B]

Sorry for the typo. Here is the correct spelling for the link. www.advancedaquarist.com. I would not be too confident that the ich won't return because 86F is the optimal temperature for ich to reproduce so it will not kill the parasite.
HTH,
Terry B

[PVsPlayHouse]

I have bin reading that in the 70 was. If it is in the high 80 or even as high as 90 that it speeds up the process. It has worked before on my tank anyway. And My UV took care of it. I have also read that Ich moves towards the light. I have put a light by my UV and keep the main light off for a day I found that this has worked as well. I have had Ich a couple of time so This is just the process that I have found works for me.
PV

[Terry B]

I hope the link works for you now.
86F is the optimal temperature for ich to reproduce so I do not recommend raising the temperature as a way of treating ich. Raising the temperature reduces the oxygen level in the water, causes dangerous changes in the blood pH of the fish and encourages the rapid growth of bacteria. If the temperature was too low to begin with then I would recommend raising it because of the stress that a low temperature causes tropical fish (reef). There may be applications (bacterial or viral infections) when raising the water temperature can be useful. I just don’t recommend it for combating external parasites.
A powerful UV can help reduce the number of parasites in a system, but it often will not cure it. The problem is that theronts can find a host and imbed into them within a few minutes of hatching. This means that most of the theronts, or at least enough of them, find a fish before they pass through a UV light.
Studies have not indicated that Cryptocaryon irritans are strongly attacked to light if at all. It may be true with Amyloodinium.
I am glad that you found something that you believe helped you in the past. Many treatments for ich only work inconsistently or not at all. I am just telling you what has proven to be consistently effective treatments.
Terry B