New tank withing 6 weeks 6 damsels have died HELP!

[Skulles]

Ok I am taking a marine bio class in my local high school. We get to set up our own salt water tank 2 people to a tank. I set my tank up around 6 weeks ago and had 2 domino damsels as my starter fish. One died in about a week or two. So I replaced him with another domino damsel. Then the last orignal fish died. So he was also replaced with another domino fish. Eventually both those fish died. Frustrated with the domino fish I decided to get another type of damsel(silver with orange strip on top) it died in a week. I replaced that with a 3 stripped damsel. So far that one is alive. I don't know why they keep dying I am very upset. My salinity is normal 2.1. The temperature is around 21 degrees celsius. The ph nitrate and nitrite are also all within the normal levels. Anyone know whats wrong or what I could test for please! I need to fix this or else ill fall my class!

PLEASE HELP ME!

[Pineapple House]

I bet your not the only one in your class with these problems. Many people rush, and right now, there are many reasons why these died.

Before I continue, tell us all this:
How big of a tank?
What are the levels? Don't say they're fine, tell us what they are so we can dicide if they are fine or not.
When did you add these fish?
What did you feed them?
How long did you aclamate them for?
How long was the trip home?
What filteration do you have on the tank?
What kind of biological filtration do you have going (sand/substrate, live rock [if any], etc)
Please list ANYTHING else about your tank set up, everything will help out!

We need to know this, before we could help further :-)

PH =)

[carol]

how was the tank cycled, what size tank,whats ammonia reading,what is your substrate,whats your SG again? I cycled my 4 in sand bed with five cocktail shrimp (dead) waited till the ammonia,nitrates and nitrites all at zero then added fish. this took about 6 weeks. also my temp is about 80 degrees and my SG is 1.021-1.023. have you noticed any type of spots on the fish before the died, if so this could be due to a parasite infection. how did you acclimate thes fish?

[Skulles]

Ok my last fish to die died on 11-13 unforutnaly my partner kept a bad log so I had to take over so its alittle sketchy on the details. And no one in my class has had this many problems.
ok as of the last check on 11-5 my ammonia was at 0 my nitrite was at 2 and my nitrate was at 20.
Im using a filter plate and an uplift tube with a regular filter, its a 20 gallon tank. I have another filter but I forget what it is called but it suckes water up and passes it through what looks like an air condition filter then puts it back into the tank. Im using gravel as well.

there are 2 rocks in it and 2 plastic plants.

I feed my fish daily at around 12-1 except weekends when I dont have class. The first 2 fish were added on 10-3.

The light is a floresent light 1 long bulb.

Hope this helps you figure out whats wrong.

[Skulles]

The fish are put into the tank in there cozy plastic bags for around 10-30 minutes then the bag is opened and some tank water is let in and that rests for 10 minutes then the poor doomed to die fish are put into the tank. And I noticed an error in what I said befor but the salinity wasnt 2.1 it was 1.02

[carol]

your nitrates are too high do a 10 percent water change and the ates should drop, they need to be very low. well all three need to be low almost nothing.

[Pineapple House]

1. It seems like you don't have proper filteration on your tank. I guess the gravel you are using serves no filteration purposes, and is likely for freshwater?

2. Your nitrite is a bit high. While damsels are resistant to most diseases, they can easily die from un proper water conditions. Your nitrite may hava affected it. What are you mesuring it in? PPM (Parts per million?), and which test kit are you using?

3. Your salinity is extremely low (if I am reading it correctly. Either it's 1.002, or 1.020?) and likely affecting the fish. Is it 1.020? or 1.002?

4. Seems like you didn't aclamate the fish long enough. While damsels are very hardy fish, they are still sensitive to water changes, mainly in pH, temp., and salinity.

Well, the first thing I would do, is take out some of your 'gavel.' Spend some money on some live sand. This will ensure great biological filteration. I would aim for a 3-5 inch sand bed. I would also dump the rock you are using. Buy some premium 'cured' live rock, perferably fiji. This will also help in your biological filteration.

If you would like to get an A in your class, do as I said above. Next, you might want to aclamate these fish for a longer period of time. I would go for an hour or so. Get a bucket, put the fish in the bucket with the water that it came in. Every 5 minutes, add a cup of water to the bucket. When the water gets too high, take some out. Continue to do this for an hour or longer, then net the fish to put it in the tank.

While at your LFS (Local Fish store) check out the fish you are buying. Make sure they eat before you get them. Make sure there are no pale spots, or any sign of disease.

Also, one last thing. What do you feed the fish?

PH =)

[phistio]

i'm wondering if the fish aren't dying from chlorimines...also, are you checking you Ph as well???

there are a lot of factors that make fish keeping successful...special attention needs to be paid to all of the details...

the reef environment is so balanced that in some cases (in the wild) as much as .01 of a difference in specific gravity can prove to be fateful for the fish...although, over time, they can be acclimated to different levels than in the wild...

also, who knows, perhaps the fish are already doomed to perish before you even get them into your tank. fish host so many pathogens, that the least amount of stress can cause a flourish of outbreaks and diseases...

best of luck!!!

keep us posted on the progress of your project!

[Nemo]

This may not be the answer, but would the rocks/gravel he is using be the cause of his poor fishy's demise?

[phistio]

not necessarily...fish can be kept in such setups...quality conditions of saltwater, and food is all that is needed to sustain life (though it not be a very natural one)

[Nemo]

So you dont think that the rocks may be releasing a pollutant into his system causing the fish to TAKE THE LAST RIDE!

[phistio]

while it is possible...i think there are other factors that seem to be the desguised executioner...who knows, maybe the tank being used housed lead once, and the silicone is leaching out lead into the tank...hypothetical, but just to make a point...there are a ton of things that can kill fish...rocks, and gravel could be one of them...a hungry cat another...though i don't think there are too many hungry cats wandering around in a bio. class :lol:

[Pineapple House]

The temperature is around 21 degrees celsius
If I am correct (which I am), that would be about 68-70 degrees F. Most damsels are from tropical waters, and is a bit stetchy is colder waters. I would perchese a nice heater for your tank, perferably 75wts or more.

Sorry I didn't catch this before. Most people here use F. and transverting them is hard. I think it is something like add 32, times 5 or something like that?

PH =)

[steve1s]

Next time try this it's easier...

http://www.soton.ac.uk/~scp93ch/units/

Cheers
Steve

[Zack]

thanks steven that helps

[carol]

I agree temp is way too low!! you need to bring it up slowly real slow or th efish will float again. somewhere between 78-82 is normal. 25-28C.

[Pineapple House]

Next time try this it's easier...

http://www.soton.ac.uk/~scp93ch/units/

Cheers
Steve
Awesome link steve! Thanks for sharing it!

PH =)

[phistio]

only time i can convert metric to standard is...

12 pints=drunk! :wink:

[Nemo]

Maybe if your drinking US beer! :lol:

[sebae0]

the trites are killing them.... he never realy let the tank finish cycling.

[Pineapple House]

the trites are killing them.... he never realy let the tank finish cycling.


I agree, they are quite high, although I doubt this would be the cause that it killed the damsels, although it's slightly posible. Damsels are relitively hardy, and resistant to most common diseases. This is why they are generally used as cycling fish. For one, they are fairly cheap. Another, they are extremely hardy, and resistant to most diseases, and able to stand a very wide range of water paremeters. Last, they are very beautiful fish, and often purchased quite a bit.

While the trites do have some affect on this fish, it's much more likely that they died from lack of temperature. I'm not saying that they 'didn't' die from the trites, just I doubt that they did :-)

PH =)

[broadwave]

We'll it seesm you do have ALLOT of factors in your environment that are causing your fish to die.

Just like everyone has already said, 50% water change then a 10% weekly. Also invest in a better Thermometer.

There is one other factor that noone else has mentioned...
Your undergravel filter!! Get rid of it!! Here's why...

Although undergravel filters work well in fresh water tanks they aren't really meant for marine tanks. What happens is that the nitrosomonas and nitrobacter are competing with your fish for oxygen and may be suffocating your fish.

definately read this article Dr. Ron Shimek has written about deep sand beds for nitrification..
http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm


Hope that helps

[Pineapple House]

Welcome to the boards Broadwave!! Glad to have you here! Enjoy your stay at the site of fun and frolics :wink:

PH =)

[Skulles]

Its a closed system tank. So I wont be cycling water. Also the trites were at 5 as of wednesday. The gravel is crushed coral.

[phistio]

by closed system, are you saying water changes aren't a part of your experiment?

if so, that's not natural...the ocean does a water change every day, through evaporation, condensation, precipitation, and erosion...

also...if your nitrites are at 5...that's high enough to cause death in some fish...however, your damsels (while overly stressed) should be able to tolerate that...however...if your nitrites are that high, i do suspect that your tank never completed cycling. especially with the CC/undergravel filter...this type of set-up takes a while to complete the natural biological nitrate cycle.

i hope your grade isn't dependent on the success of this tank... :( :cry:

[Skulles]

The damsels are there to cycle the tank. And the ocean does not get 10% new water weekly. Its true that I cant recreat rain and water cycles. But I can let algea build up!

[Nemo]

you cant really compare the balance that the ocean has to a 20 gal tank! Your only trying to mimic the oceans ability to complete the cycling process and by doing water changes you take part in your tanks ability to complete the cycle when things get backed up at one end.


If it was my project IMHO I would do a complete overhaul of the tank. Stripe it right down and start with new sand(live) you may want to take some from a successful classmates tank if they let you, and if possible add a nice piece of LR.


Get ride of your undergravel as well, it wouldnt hurt however to leave the airstones to create some water movement

[phistio]

i'm not sure, but i think he's locked into a timeline...and cannot change his current setup...

skulles...what are the "rules" of your experiment???

[Nemo]

Well...I guess if the water changes dont work or if there is not enough time before grading. IMO I think your teacher may be more impressed with your understanding of WHY your tank failed or what hypothesis' you can put forth to help explain your situation. I think that sometimes failure especially in the sciences speaks more than success.


Apart of your explanation to your teacher may include alot of what has already been said. You may want to go more in depth or not. Your grade would increase the more you understood the biology.


IMO use alot of scientific terms to describe yourself to your teacher!

[phistio]

a BS in B.S. ???

[Nemo]

a BS in B.S. ???



What do you mean by this???

[phistio]

sorry...i was kidding...i meant a bachelor of science in b.s.

it was a joke... :lol: :roll:

[Nemo]

:lol: I thought that it was that :lol:


I just didnt know if I had missed some of the discussion :lol:


Teachers definetely like BS it shows confidence and when that is matched with correct information they eat it up A+++

[phistio]

i dunno...i've had plenty of professors call a bluff...

all i'm saying is if you're prepared to talk the talk...better make sure you can bring out the big guns to walk the walk...

i can only assume the professor of the marine-biology course knows more than the students.

[Nemo]

I not saying that you shouldnt back up your BS. Im just saying its all BS!!! and what you need to do is understand what could cause the tank to fail and know for each possibility the way to correct it.

You do need to BS alittle, but hopefully you understand what your saying so you sound informed to the prof

[phistio]

yeah, i agree with nemo...as long as you have an understanding of what went wrong...you might can salvage a grade...

just don't get in to far, or everyone will need boots... :wink:

[broadwave]

Maybe this "professor" should read some of Delbeek and Sprungs publications or least get on the message boards befoer teaching a class??

:lol:

[5thtonbench]

I think it is something like add 32, times 5 or something like that?

(Temp in C x 1.8) + 32 ...

just for future clarification 8)

And I have to comment... I have serious doubts about this professors profesionalism. As a diver, I have a great respect for the ocean and its living beauty, and anything that comes home to my tank receives my utmost attention... this hobby carries great responsibility.

That being said, you would expect a marine biologist to be even more a preservationist than I. I find it odd that this project seems to have been started without fundamental knowledge of saltwater startup, cycle processes or general troubleshooting. Keeping some type of fish swimming in the tank is not the goal of your experiment I am sure, and frankly it is rather appalling that the professor allows consistent replacement to go on and on without stepping in with even a hint. Its rather sad, nothing against skulles however.

I am just rather shocked by this thread and the behaviour of this professor.

One thing I do not believe was asked, where did your water come from? Please dont say "the faucet"...

[Nemo]

I am just rather shocked by this thread and the behavior of this professor.


Can I ask why you say this? :roll: IMHO I dont think that your in a position to be so critical of the teacher. You dont know how involved he is with his class. Your commenting on something that attacks without first having a true understanding of what is truly going on in the class. I do agree with you that senselessly allowing anyone to destroy rather than create is against what we as hobbyists are trying to achieve.

One thing I do not believe was asked, where did your water come from? Please dont say "the faucet"

What do you mean by this? sorry Im a little confused here.

I not trying to jump down your throat by any means. I am just going on what Ive been taught over the years. Its better to hold judgment than to withhold wisdom.

[phistio]

for what it's worth...sometimes water from the faucet can be perfectly fine for the aquarium...

in some cities, water is purified by R/O and if tested can be a great source to be tapped...(pun intended).

city water that test 0 phosphates, and low nitrates is more than suitable for use in the aquarium rural water (near farming and agricultural communities) may have higher levels of nitrates, and therefore making it unacceptable to use for the aquarium.

on a different note...we don't know all the scenarios of the experiment. we don't even really know the entire goal, although i suspect the purpose of the experiment is to 1) increase an awareness of an ecosystem, and 2) try to replicate a successful simulation of a marine environment.

5thtonbench, while i understand your disapproval of the experiment, it is true that we don't know the entire purpose of the experiment...while i agree that the professor should discourage failure. even a remedial course in marine biology, i would hope, would try to explain the fascinating and delicate balance of the marine ecosystem. let's hope the professor intended this project for education, and not sadistic pleasure of both fish and students suffering...

[5thtonbench]

... you would expect a marine biologist to be even more a preservationist ...

... I find it odd that this project seems to have been started without fundamental knowledge of saltwater startup, cycle processes or general troubleshooting...

...it is rather appalling that the professor allows consistent replacement to go on and on without stepping in with even a hint...

...Its rather sad...


Nemo, you do not agree with the above statements? They all serve as precursors to my statement on the professor's behaviour.

Phistio, I jumped the gun on the water... I am rural here, salt critters wouldnt last 3 hours in our water. I do not believe the professors intent is sadism, however if he was intending to allow fish to perish at this rate, why not tell his students go home, throw them in the toilet and watch them die over the next day, then you dont even have to do extra work when they die, just flush...

my intended message was, Its very poor of a professor to stand by and watch this go on without offering some prevention, especially a marine biologist.

[phistio]

i agree 5th...and after reading another post on the subject, i (we) find out, that this is a highschool experiment.

[Zack]

So how is this going?