anyone shrimp cycle?

[carol]

does anyone use the shrimp method to cycle? I keep seeing people cycle their tanks with damsels or chromois and some lr. IMO thats gonna hurt the fish just a little...I wouldn't wanna be them when the spike happens! I cycled mine with 5in sand and 4 shrimp and all of my base and LR. had a total cycle time of 5 weeks. I'm not saying you cant cycle with live fish (done that too!), but I never thought about the fish! just my 2 cents
seth

[saltyfishboy]

I have never used it....I know a bit about it...If I ever get a new tank I would definitly use that method to cycle the tank.

[HoopsGuru]

In my opinion, everyone should....hopefully we get every member here to read this topic and realize that the need to put fish through a cycle is unnecessary and the whole idea is pretty archaic.

[phistio]

i completely agree...

it's my personal opinion that fish need not to be used to cycle. and as said before is archaic, as well as a bit cruel...it seemed commenplace to put a damsel, or a hearty fish in the tank to help increase ammonia, as these types of fish can tolerate high levels of nitrites and nitrates, as well as unstable Ph levels...

in my opinion, this is not acceptable...

i cycled my tank using two peppermint shrimp. not only did they forage through my live rock, and help the "curing" process, they also removed any unwanted pests (such as aiptasia). this preventive step, hopefully will linit the chances of ever having an outbreak of the pesky anemones.

while i do think it would also be cruel for shrimp if they were to not have pristine water conditions, the physiology of fish and shrimp differ greatly. (in many cases, shrimp are not as susceptable to the effects of polluted water, where as fish are.)

[steve1s]

Believe it or not, with a LR or LS set up. There is absolutely no need for any additions of more animals to cycle the tank. The shrimp idea is no different than using fish. IMO, not a very nice thing to do.

You can accomplish the same task with a piece of raw seafood. All you are doing is giving the bacteria's something to feed off of. Live fish or raw meats (seafoods of course) the result is the same.

Cheers
Steve

[carol]

I hope the shrimp method catches on around here! and hoops do you keep that name on other boards? like aqualink? If you do then hello you have helped me on quite a few issues on another board. I like the spellcheck on this one!

[HoopsGuru]

By the "shrimp" method, I regard this as using a cocktail shrimp....dead, very dead! I don't know if there is some other common "shrimp" method which utilizes live ornamental shrimp as Phistio used....not to mention I don't know the physiology of ornamental shrimp to know if using them would be cruel or not.

Carol....yes indeed, I go by this name everywhere! Glad I could share some information with you that helped....you can always find me here or at AL.....sometimes even ReefCentral. Keep sharing and always feel free to PM me with updates on your tank!

[phistio]

see...i wasn't sure if you meant placing a few cocktail shrimp in to raise ammonia to help cycle, or to add live shrimp...

both work...

the adding of dead cocktail shrimp is the most "humane" way to go about it...and works faster!

however, most beggining aquarists want some sort of action in their tank...which in most cases is why they add a fish. and blue damsels seem to be the most popular choice as they're a vivid blue.

i chose to finish out the remaining time of my cycle (as amonia had already peaked, and started the nitrates going) so i added the peppermints to help complete the cycle...

[sebae0]

we are all so worried about the fish so lets put a cocktail shrimp in because... wait let me check it was alive at one time but pulled from the ocean with a net and boat so not so personal to us. hmmm kinda of the same treatment your putting that live fish through except you dont have to see it.. out of sight of mind i guess. look anything will work as long as it will decay in the tank and cause the bacteris to grow plain and simple. sometimes we dont look at the whole picture until you get the visual.
steak anyone????????

[phistio]

only if it comes with a side of 4 skewered shrimp... :wink: :lol:

[HoopsGuru]

we are all so worried about the fish so lets put a cocktail shrimp in because... wait let me check it was alive at one time but pulled from the ocean with a net and boat so not so personal to us. hmmm kinda of the same treatment your putting that live fish through except you dont have to see it.

Are you serious? I hate to say it to you but that is a silly comparison. Whether or not the saltwater aquarium hobby exists, shrimp will still be harvested for human consumption. This in NO way even closely related to taking a fish and purposely putting it in to fuel and at the same time endure the trauma of a cycle.

[sebae0]

i know its apple to oranges but there is a similarity, we tend to have compasion for things that we see in our own tanks, well honestly everything that personally touches us our pets, people, and any other creature that we are familiar with. i am in no means saying that using a fish to cycle tank isnt some kinda torture but what i am saying is that anything can be put in to do it, flake would start a cycle because it will decay. trying to diassociate ourselves with things we dont normally see or take for granted doesnt mean it isnt happening. all us dog owners would hate to see that they are eaten in some asian countries, or the rat that goes to be food for a snake. that poor little fish is gonna have a little trauma but most will live ( i have never lost a fish to a cycle, i accept it) for future tanks i am going to artificially cycle them, i agree with the concept. but lets not forget all the other traumas we do not want to accept because we are not privied to them. also please dont take this the wrong way iam not trying to start an argument just make people think. i value everyones opinions on these boards and i think we learn so much from each other that they are an invaulable resource.

[Tim C]

How about using flaked fish food? I add a little bit here and there over a period of time to increase the bioload before I start to seriously stock the tank. With cured live rock, the system can usually handle the increase in bioload pretty well.

Tim C

[HoopsGuru]

I understand that you aren't trying to start an argument, but at the same time I still don't understand your comparison. You seem to advocate using live fish to cycle tanks (I assume this because you use it) and consider it no more inhumane than using a cocktail shrimp....I don't see the connection. I currently use cocktail shrimp, shrimp that have already been harvested and packaged for human consumption.....whether I use them or not, the industry will not harvest more or less.

This is not similar to harvesting a fish whose main use is to endure the effects of ammonia, just to get our tanks "going".

AMMONIA -- Raised levels affect fish health in several different ways. At low levels (<0.1 mg/litre NH3) it acts a strong irritant, especially to the gills. Prolonged exposure to sub-lethal levels can lead to skin and gill hyperplasia . Gill hyperplasia is a condition in which the secondary gill lamellae swell and thicken, restricting the water flow over the gill filaments. This can result in respiratory problems and stress and as well as creating conditions for opportunistic bacteria and parasites to proliferate. Elevated levels are a common precursor to bacterial gill disease.

Fish response to sub lethal levels are similar to those to any other form of irritation, i.e. flashing and rubbing against solid objects. Without water testing it would be very easy to wrongly conclude the fish had a parasite problem.

At higher levels (>0.1 mg/litre NH3) even relatively short exposures can lead to skin, eye, and gills damage. Elevated levels can also lead to ammonia poisoning by suppressing normal ammonia excrement from the gills. If fish are unable to excrete this metabolic waste product there is a rise in blood-ammonia levels resulting in damage to internal organs.
(source- Ammonia (http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/water/ammonia.htm))

I certainly wouldn't term this a "little trauma". As for flake food, normally the number one ingredient is fish and/or shrimp meal....which in your terms would still be as "unethical" as any other method.

[Johnny]

ok Im lost if you dont mine waiting 5 or 6 weeks for it to cycle cant you just use live rock and live sand? :? This is really a question because I am about to start on my first reef tank.

[carol]

yes you can but to avoid too much die off on your LR, add base rock (dry), sand then a plate to pour water onto. once tank is full and all extras are running add 4-5 cocktail shrimp. wait 4-6 weeks until ammonia and nitrates and nitrites are zero. add LR on top of base rock, wait for mini-cycle and then you are good to go. I know how expensive live sand can be, why buy it when you can make your own!! I used southdown play sand works great, looks better!

[Johnny]

I cannot find southdown around here (Mississippi) I was wondering If I could just go to the Gulf and get some sand?

[carol]

I would worry too much about pollution and unwanted guests. normal play sand will also work, the southdown stuff is just lighter in color. soon the southdown will turn brown, gray, green..... so regular brown playsand will do. a buddy has the regular and you cant tell a difference between our tanks! its all up to you

[Johnny]

From what I have heard some play sand will start clumping together over time in your experience is this true?

[HoopsGuru]

Good question and the answer is no, provided you have infauna inhabiting the DSB. In a deep sand bed (DSB), it is important to have these infauna as the constantly move through the substrate keeping it from packing. If your new worry is, "How do i know if I have infauna?", don't worry if you are adding live rock to the tank. Most liverock comes with enough diversity to multiply in your tank, although it does take some time. A way to do this quicker would be to order a detrivore kit from somewhere such as www.ipsf.com .

[Johnny]

I work part time at a swimming pool store, they use silica sand in the filter systems could I use this for my DSB? I was thinking of ordering the sand activator from GARF. But still researching different sources.

[carol]

I have friends that did the silica sand and it works fine. make sure it is sugar sized

[Johnny]

This sand varies in size alot so I will probibly just try some regular play sand. Of all the things I have reasearched I am most comfused about the sand I need to use for a sand bed. :shock:

[HoopsGuru]

Of all the things I have reasearched I am most comfused about the

All you need to do is make sure the grains are sugar sized. Ignore any myths at LFS's etc. that state you can't use a paricular kind.....as carol stated, even silica sand (once thought unusable by the hobby) has been proven to be a perfectly fine alternative to aragonite. Your local Home Depot, Lowes, Toys-R-Us, etc. should all carry acceptible playsand.