Do I need two canister filters?

[Sean Smith]

My LFS is recommending that I setup my new reef tank configuration (85 gallon) with two canister filters - one under each side of the tank. They advise that this is optimal to get the best waterflow and mechanical filtration across a 48" tank. :roll: They also suggest that two filters provide redundancy in case one needs to be cleaned/maintained or goes down.

As a newbie who is doing a lot of research I am not entirely convinced that I need two. In fact I seem to be getting the message that canister filters aren't especially effective or indeed may be dispensed with altogether.

But I am still tempted because for the negligible extra cost of the filter (in the context of what I am initially having to shell out) - I want to give myself the very best chance of water quality and success.

So in summary: I will have a decent skimmer (rated for a significantly bigger tank), LR and substrate, powerheads and one canister filter - but do I actually need two?! Would welcome your advice.

Regards
Sean

[Irisservice]

Is there a sump?
Do you have live rock?
The reason i ask is because the use of a canister filter on a reef tank is rare!! It pull food the corals thrive on out of the water. Unless you plan on just using them with just carbon or just as pumps. people some times run canister filters on a reef tank to polish the water for photos.

[Sean Smith]

I ordered the tank originally for a freshwater setup - and with it I specified a filter. So I take delivery in about two weeks time and it is now too late to change the order.
.... and now my tank stand is configured in such a way that I cannot fit a sump.

What would you advise?

Cheers
S.

[fishfreek]

You dont need the canister filters.

If your system is going to be a FO or a FOWLR then you can keep the canister filters and run them with out a negitive effect on your system. If your gonna go Reef then you will need to clean these filters very frequently to keep the nitrates down.

I like the simplist form of filtration possible.

With the 85 gal tank I would try to get 100lbs of live rock or maybe 40 lbs of live rock and 60lbs of base rock. Get 3-4" worth of a sand bed. You can see "dead" sand with 1" of live sand.

Add a decent hang on skimmer (since you cant fit a sump per your message above) and you will have the makings of a great reef.

If you want to install a sump just put the canister filters aside or off load them on ebay or something like that.

[Irisservice]

Let us know what you plan to keep!!

[Sean Smith]

I am new to marine (experienced with freshwater) so I struggle to answer - what will I keep... But you are right - it is a pretty fundamental question that I should answer before spec'ing my tank.

The LFS recommended that I go for FO as a beginner. FOWLR is something I hadn't even considered. I had my mind set on a reef tank (soft coral) with a small amount of fish. I assumed that this is the right option because my new tank will have four flourescents - and I understand hard corals to require more specialised lighting.

If I go for FOWLR what would I be missing out on? Would the ability to stock comparatively more fish compensate for missing out on the corals? Dilemma dilemma......

[fishfreek]

There is absolutly nothing wrong with starting out with a FO or a FOWLR tank and then after your comfortable with the care and the tank has stablised to move into a reef style setup.

Think about what kinds of fish you want. The number of fish, the species of fish.

Post that list here. We can then tell ya what will work together what will not work and so forth.

IMHO a stocking guide of 1" per 5 gal should always be used reguarless of a reef or a FOWLR. That would give you 17" of "ADULT" size fish to work with.

[phistio]

http://www.reefcentral.com/images/welcome.gif
to ReefLounge Sean Smith

congrats on your new setup...

IMO, i think you'd be best to go with a FOWLR...at least that way you can experience some of the excitement of reef keeping, as well as have some interesting species as fish (some that are considered not reef safe.) IMO FOWLR tanks are easier to maintain, as they have the added benifit of biological filtration from the live rock, yet can often operate with lower amounts of lighting, such as your NO lights you'll be recieving with your setup...and who knows, maybe sometime later down the road, you'll want to convert that very same tank into a reef tank...at least you'll have a great base to form it on. at the same time you'll be learning all the methods of saltwater, as well as the physiology of marine life.

my first tank was a FOWLR, and it greatly accellerated my knowledge of reef keeping...and slowly i started making my FOWLR into a psuedo-reef...then eventually i statred another full blown reef tank.

best of luck, and i hope to see you around the forum here!

[BrianH]

I am currently running a 50gal reef with an eheim 2217 and no sump. The eheim was left over from a FW tank so I loaded it up with about 10lbs of base rock and use it primarily as another pump at 250 gph. I also use the eheim for any carbon or other chemical treatments. I wouldn't suggest using the canisters as biofilters, but you could also throw in some poly sheets for polishing.
Brian

[HoopsGuru]

I agree with Brian's comments. Since they are already on the way, I would run the canisters completely empty as sort of a obese power head. They will give some more benefit as well such as filter floss for polishing or to use carbon in your future reef days (believe me, you will migrate to it!).

Put a deep sand bed in the main tank, whether you go FO, FOWLR, or one day a full blown reef you will be thankful you did. Take any kind of sugar sized sand (playsand from hardware stores works great, Southdown brand for example from Home D if you are on the East Coast) and make it at least 4 inches deep. This will give you the cheapest, easiest, and most effective biological filtration you can get. Add some LR to seed it and then be patient. HOB skimmers are not very effective but would be an option if you really want one....I prefer routine water changes.

[phistio]

yeah...i agree with hoops here...

i would start a 4" DSBeven if it were a year for you to change to a full blown reef, you'd have an awsome live, mature DSB, as well as being able to benifit from the biological filtration of the DSB...

i too would stick with the canisters for now...nothing wrong with good water flow, though in the long run, you may not use entirely as they're intended to be use...they are reliable solid, sound pumps/filters...ehiem makes a good product...

is the canister filter you'll be recieving an ehiem?

[Irisservice]

Did you get the new filters yet?

If you don't like them send them back rather than keeping so thing your going to have to replace anyway.Even if they charge you a fee for returning them.

If you can't return sell them it's a lot easier to sell something thats new than used.


You don't need them to setup the tank,you just need a good powerhead a DSB and Live rock and a skimmer is a good idea. that way you can sell the canisters off and spend it on something else like a good skimmer

[HoopsGuru]

O.k. idea, but if he has no sump then he has to get a HOB skimmer....there are none right now that actually pull enough gunk out to be worth their money.

I think keeping at least one is a good idea. As i stated above, when you decide to go to a full reef (notice i don't say "if" :wink: ) you will be glad to have a place to run carbon, etc. since your stand will not accomodate a sump.

[Sean Smith]

I am humbled by the effort and wisdom you good people have put into helping me out. And please be assured you've all moved me a lot further forward in my thinking. What a marvellously powerful thing the Internet is... how did we ever cope without it?

The transition from freshwater to marine - or rather the start of my climb up the learning ladder - is fascinating. I know so much more about the subject than I did a week ago... and i think this is speeded by my freshwater experience. This is absolutely compulsive stuff and there is no turning back. I only wonder why I didn't go into it before!

I have made some decisions... helped by your input.

FOWLR tank

My view today is to go for FOWLR to progress to a pseudo reef. The future planner in me then thinks that as I stock the tank I should do so with half-a-mind of having a reef in a year's time, which conditions the choices of fish. The mitigation to that would be to assume that the LFS will take back any livestock that is ultimately unsuitable for a reef.

Stock

I know nothing about individual species - so far just marvel at the colours and the beauty. So fishfreek.... I cannot post the list yet... that's something I am going to have to educate myself on. I can say that if I were to aim for certain attributes of my freshwater tanks - I would go for fish with strong character and high amounts of activity. As a marine newbie my first instinct is to go for colour, colour, colour.... but I know that the choices have to be more esoteric than that. Moreover, I would rather have a larger number of smaller fish - than a smaller number of larger fish.

:idea: Maybe I can put it a different way. If you guys were stocking an 85 FOWLR what would your wish-list be?!... bearing in mind the attributes above and the potential to move to a reef in the future. What about inverts?


Canister
I hear what you say Irisservice about better to sell something that is new - or even to send back. Fortuntately money is not too much of an issue in this first phase (famous last words, haven't told the wife yet :twisted: ). So I will keep the canister for waterflow and the potential for polishing/carbon. THE FLS also mentioned Rowa Phos. It is a Rena rather than Eheim, Phistio.

DSB
I was going to go for 4" live sand... this could prove costly. Is this just an ill-advised waste of money? Perhaps I should go for half live/half dead. Again, given the high cost of initial setup the delta is comparatively small and so I figure I might as well go for the LS, Hoops.


Cheers for now
Sean

[phistio]

personally...i think you can get away with southdown sand, rather than live sand...especially if you're focusing on a FOWLR setup...if you plan to have a reef in a years time, your sand bed will have matured nicely by then...and that initial savings of money can be applied to say better lights for a reef tanks, or money for the stocking of the tank...or even live rock...quality live rock is not cheap!!!

as far as a fishwish-list...opinions vary...just try toselect good hearty community type fish...and one's that don't require special needs in order to survive...

lionfish are hearty...damsels are hearty...clown fish are fairly hearty...it just depends on what you want to go with...85 gallons is a lot of tank for fish to swim in...go to your LFS...look at some fish, see what interests you...write their names down, and do a little research...ask questions if species will get along...make sure the clown you get is much bigger than the lionfish's mouth...you get the picture...

best of luck, and keep us posted!

[HoopsGuru]

That would be my advice as well. I have never reasoned the appeal of "live sand" purchased in bags or whatever. I have never seen nor read reports that validated any sort of actual fauna life, its usually just populated with bacteria. The same effect is easily achieved by allowed your tank to cycle naturally...or aided by a scoop from a fellow reefer, for a fraction of the cost of "live sand". I would go almost totally playsand, and then look at possible adding a small amount of live sand. (personally, I would just throw in 4 or 5 more cocktail shrimp and use the 4-6 week cycle to finalize the plans for the livestock, etc.)

As far as livestock, you definitely have to pick a theme but you are in the envious position of having a larger tank to "tinker" with. Geez, the possiblities are pretty wide open, community tank...aggressive....biotope (for example, livestock all from the Red Sea, etc.). I would definitely take some consider though into what your future plans "might" be, there's nothing like wanting to turn your tank into a full reef and realizing your favorite fish will nip and/or eat corals.

Good luck....HTH

[david]

these are just some of my thoughts after reading your last post.
as far as fish go, take a long look at marinedepotlive.com , when i started that sight helped me make a lot of decisions about fish selection.
Lots of good pic's to look at and good info on each fish.
also very easy to look at "Just fish".

Also for substrate I would Highly recommend E.S.V. "Fine Grade" Oolitic Aragonite Reef Sand .
Cost less than live sand. and much better Quality than other substrates.
I use a 60/40 mix of esv and other. I would have preferred 80% esv 20% other.
anyway just my opinions.
Dave