clown with white spots

[kmrobins]

So, I had two healthy clowns that liked to fight, till one submitted and jumped out of the tank.
I got a new one from the fish store...soon i noticed a white spot under his lip. I had seen this before in my other ones but it went away. It then turned into a redish spot, and he stopped eating although he would still put the food in his mouth and spit it out, maybe he eats one shrimp. I felt like he might get better, but now my other clown (which was VERY healthy) is now showing the same behavior and I notice a white spot on him and some bumps on both there fins. They both attemp to get food, but spit it out, or maybe eat one.

So is this ICH or the collyflower thing?
What do I do?
I don't want to set up a QT if i don't have to?
How do I save my other fish?!?!
People talk of garlic...but i don't even know where to start with that?
What medicine can i put in my tank...( i have FOWLR)?

I do not want my other fish to get sick!
Thanks for the help,
Sage

[michealprater]

It sounds like ich to me. If you have no inverts or corals I would recommend coppersafe. You just have to follow the directions on the bottle. If you have any inverts or corals though, do not use copper, it will kill them. However in FO tanks I have had great luck with copper.

[frizzbee30]

Does indeed sound like crypto. You have live rock.. you DO have inverts in the system even if you have not noticed them. If u have anemones they will suffer from medication. You no doubt have algaes, these are for obvious reasons pretty vital in your nitro cycle .Together with all the other little 'critters' they stabilise your system unless you have a really intensive clinical filtration/water treatment sytem I really would set up a QT tank .Use some of your old filter substrate and water. It will do for future new stock qt ing. If you add copper base to your system you will lose a lot of unseen but important life on your LR and all your algaes.
good luck.

(just recovering from Ich myself!!!)

[kmrobins]

ok, so lets say i take them out and treat them with copper in a QT tank. Isn't the ICK still in the main tank...doesn't it lay inside the rock and stuff. How do i get rid of it in the main tank to prevent furher outbreaks??
What about over the counter stuff?

[Lahatiel]

Actually without a host the parasite will die out. that is one of the functions of using a quarantine...to seperate the fish from the main tank so it dies out in the main tank...that way you can treat with copper based meds, which will kill the parasites, without any adverse effects to the corals.

Am I on track there reef guru's?

[steve1s]

Actually without a host the parasite will die out. that is one of the functions of using a quarantine...to seperate the fish from the main tank so it dies out in the main tank...that way you can treat with copper based meds without any adverse effects to the corals.

Am I on track there reef guru's?

100% accurate. The only thing I would add is you will need to leave the display tank fishless for a minimum of 4 weeks to ensure the parasite is completely eradicated...

Cheers
Steve

[frizzbee30]

I'm in that empty tank stage myself...may even leave upto six weeks!, in the meantime my invert collection grows and grows! :D

[kmrobins]

ok, I am starting to think my clowns DON'T have ICH. I guess its more instinct then anything else. See, the 'new' clown i got from the store had the spots first, one spot under his lip, but then it eventually went away...and now it looks like all his spots have went away...yet still does not eat. The other clown has some spots, but they are big, like pimples, i just want to go in there and sqeeze them or something. They have also had this for close to 2 weeks now, I have done nothing to my tank....and I have a yellow tang in there and a coral beauty and they show NO signs of sickness. Wouldn't the tang get it fast?

But on a good note, looks like i'm getting cyano as well :lol:

[frizzbee30]

Not all your fish will contract immediatley,same experience here..was ich in end

[kmrobins]

ok, but does ICH go away by itself?
And can ICH spots be as big as pimples?
Now it looks like they are going down on my other clown...(not as raised and ready to 'pop')

[steve1s]

The trophont or attached stage of C. irritans can reach sizes up to 3-5 mm, which can seem to us quite large especially on a small fish. It may seem as the parasite is going away but in fact it has only detached itself from the host fish in order to multiply.

The cyst stage or tomont is where it attaches to a hard surface in the tank and multiplies. The newly hatched parasite then seeks out a host again. The free swimming theronts then only have about 12 hrs to find a host or it will starve. Less than 15% of all newly hatched theronts will actually succeed.

It is the on and off life cycle of the parasite that normally makes the hobbiest mistakenly believe the parasite is going away. The unfortunate reality is that the paarasite is simply growing in number and the possibility of re-infection becomes greater and greater.

Treating all the fish in a QT tank is still highly recommended. Do not mistake an uninfected fish as safe, all fish should be removed from the affected tank. Only a fishless environment will ensure the parasite will die out naturally in 4 weeks and the aquariust will not need to risk treating the main tank.

To answer the other question... ok, but does ICH go away by itself?

The answer is yes, it can. Be aware though that it is extremely rare for this to happen. In some circumstances, very healthy fish can in effect repel the parasite in which it cannot feed and will die. The reality is, it only takes one theront to get hold and cause the cycle to begin anew. Not a risk I would suggest you take!

Cheers
Steve

[Mikeaveli21]

JME, I have had ich leave a fish all by itself. But in my case, the water conditions got a little bad, stressing the fish out, weakening the immune system, making it susceptible to ich. A few weeks of water changes and improving the water quality, the fish was all better. I am guessing the lack of stress allowed the fish to fight off the parasite. Can't get too scientific on this matter. But it did happen to me (twice). Just my 2 cents. Good luck :D

Oh, and I would NEVER use copper in the main tank even if it's FO. Reason being, your addiction will lead you to want FOWLR, then add a few snails, then a full blown reef. If you've ever treated with copper, it will leach out of various components within the tank destroying the reef potential for your tank. So just play it safe and QT the fish if you decide to go copper. HTH.

Mike

[kmrobins]

I have heard that if you keep the fish really healthy and not stressed out that they may be able to fight off the ICH. This is why people use garlic right? I just went out to purchase Pure Garlic Extract and found it nowwhere...they have lemon and orange and vanilla..etc! Where does one find GARLIC EXTRACT?
Because honestly, I know everyone says take the fish out for 4 to 6 weeks, but i'm not doing that. One tank is hard enough to keep, now i'm going to start another...my job does not allow the time to do water changes everyday. So I want to just try and keep fish healthy and strong and if the others do get ICH then i will use RxP. I can't be the only one who feels this way.
I am totally off base here?

[steve1s]

To use a QT or not is your choice, but it does not need to be set up continuously nor does it need daily water changes. A simple rubbermaid tub, heater, corner filter and power head are all that is needed. Filling the QT with water from the main tank and matching temp will get it started. Once treatment is done, the QT can be torn down and stored.

Garlic can only aide the animal in repelling the parasite and will by no means cure it. Garlic is a great immune booster (vitamins) and the active ingredient that helps with C. irritans is allicin, which will deter the trophont from attaching itself.

Be very careful if you do decide to use the RpX. There are a great many fish types and inverts that cannot tolerate the treatment.

Best of luck...
Cheers
Steve

[kmrobins]

What is allicin?
Is that a component of garlic?
If I do use a over the counter remedy can u suggest something safer then Rxp?

Thanks for all the help!

[steve1s]

Allicin (http://www.chem.ox.ac.uk/mom/allicin/allicin.html) is a natural occuring product of garlic.

The only reef safe med I have personally tried with possitive results is Ecolibrium (http://www.fishvet.com/pages/disease2.tmpl?sku=05) aka No Ick. I have only used it once, so I cannot guarantee the results...

Cheers
Steve

[Static416]

While the white pimples sound like Ich, I think that the bump on the underside of the lip is something different.

One of my new clowns has that too and it doesn't seem to be effecting him, and is starting to go down. I'm hopeful that it will go away or is easily treatable if not.

[steve1s]

Properly identifying the affliction is very important when dealing with marine problems. If possible, try to get your fish to pose for a pic and post it. If not, try looking through our quick list (http://reeflounge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=535) and see if anything rings true...

Cheers
Steve