New tank...new death

[Dragcrab]

Hey everyone, 4 days ago I picked up a 46 gallon tank, and set it up. 2 days ago I got four fish, and then yesterday I got 9 more. They are all Damsels "2 domino, 2 striped, 2 yellow tails, 2 blues, and 5 green schooling". 2 of my greens have died in 24 hours. One I found stuck to the filter intake, still alive. I quickly turned the filter down..and he fell off. It fell to the bottom of the tank, then began to swim in circles upside down. Seconds later my big domino and my big blue attacked it...and tore off his fins.

The second green I found this morning, floating on the top of the tank.

My question is...did I do something wrong? Too many fish in the tank? Too many agressive fish?

Also my fish act different when the light is on. They seem frantic..and swim around the surface of the water looking for food. When the light is off...they go hide in the rocks.

It is a 46 gallon box front tank
17 lbs of live rock
mixture of 20lbs live sand and 25lbs crushed coral
Marineland emperor 280 filter


The temperature is at 78degrees, and the saludity is at 1.0125.

the tank came with a 200 watt bulb...but the lady at the store told me to get a 30watt blue bulb...because it makes the fish stand out more. Should I get a brighter bulb?

I don't have a chemical tester yet, so I can't check those figures.

I also have some sort of film build up on the walls of the tank. How do I clean this off?

Sorry for being for ignorant at all of this. I am VERY new to aquariums..and new to this board.

Thanks, Andrew

[on_fire_8]

please read this.

http://www.reeflounge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=434

[Samurai]

WHOA! Your bio-load is probably too big for that sized tank. Also your tank probably hasn't cycled yet. Your Green Chromises are most likely dying because they are unhealthily being forced to put up with ammonia spikes while other *VERY TERRITORIAL AND VERY AGGRESSIVE* damsels are attacking them. Green Chromises are one of the most peaceful damsels (and fish in general) and don't last too long against meaner fish (they also do better in a school). Your fish act frantically because it's a madhouse in your tank right now and when you turn your lights out they are probably all trying to hide from each other and get some sleep.

GET A TEST KIT!!!!!! That is 100% necessary (your fish store should not have let you walk out of the store without one).

Get a brighter bulb if you want one, a normal output flourescent is all you need for a fish only tank. You didn't need the blue bulb (probably actinic) to begin with.

What color is the film? If it's brown it could be a diatom bloom. This could be the result of high phosphates in your water. You can eliminate this with a reverse osmosis unit. Until then scrape if off the glass with an algae scraper.

Don't be too sorry about this, everyone makes mistakes. But I would start correcting this one immediately by taking some of those damsels back to where you got them before more of them die (do a water change until then). Sounds like your fish store *SUCKS* if they sold you all of this. In fact I would take ALL of them back until your tank is cycled. (You can search for "shrimp cycling" to do it the humane way. Basically it's tossing a couple of uncooked, unshelled cocktail shrimp into the tank and letting the nitrifying bacteria feed off of them until your nitrite and ammonia levels are zero.) You will become educated about keeping marine fish and inverts by regularly using this forum- I know I have. Again, if your live fish store sold you all of these fish (that will NEVER get along together in that sized tank) knowing that it was for a new and uncycled aquarium then you ought to have a talk with them about screwing a newbie. Those kinds of shenanigans are NOT alright. They are helping to kill fish (that are probably collected from the wild) and are definitely wronging a newbie just to make a quick buck. They also probably had a bunch of aggressive damsels in one small tank in their store. They can get away with this because people buy them quickly and the fish don't have room to set up territories (so they don't fight so much). Damsels will survive like that for a while (usually long enough to sell them), but they can't live too long like that. If there are any other questions you have then PLEASE ask, I'm sure that lots of members will be willing to help you. I'm not trying to come down on you, you're a rookie who made a rookie mistake- it happens to the best of us- I'm angry at your fish store, they really screwed you and that's a very crappy thing to do (either that or they know nothing about marine fish). In the future do as much research as you can on anything aquarium related before you take the plunge (I wish I could have told myself this last week when Tetras kept dying in my freshwater tank). And ask ask ask... that's what this forum is here for.

P.S. Your salinity and temp. sound fine- so at least some things are going well.

[Dragcrab]

wow thanks a lot! I wish I would have asked these types of questions before I went out and spent all this money.

I read the whole post on wild bred vs store bred fish...and I asked them if they breed any of their fish. The told me the only thing they breed are corals "maybe letting them multiply onto other rock?". They do have a small tank "maybe 10 gallon" with probably 30-40 damsels in it. I asked them why mine were so agressive...and the lady replied "oh they are super mean, they are like little piranhas. I find them dead all the time, missing fins and tails". She then told me to get some more fish..along with some more live rock to confuse my agressive domino, and make him less teritorial. I agree...he isn't attacking one particular fish...just chasing all of them away. He has calmed down a lot more as of today...and eveything seems to be going fine. I'll call the store tomorrow and ask if I can return fish to them. I doubt they will let me...especially not with a money back garauntee. The store is ran by a bunch of hippies, and is only open from 11-6pm. They also run a hydro-ponics store next door.

Basically I got screwed...and luckily I didn't spend any more money. Hopefully all goes well...and my tank can cycle without any more major malfunctions. Thanks again for the info, and the heads up. Wish I would have checked this site prior to taking out the credit card.

[Samurai]

"oh they are super mean, they are like little piranhas. I find them dead all the time, missing fins and tails".

These people don't sound too knowledgable, If I were you, I would never go back to that store. She should have told you all of those things up front. You lost your money (and fish) so they should lose your business. In the future be wary of anything that they tell you, if you doubt them then ask us.

The way they breed corals is probably by letting them multiply on the rocks (for mushrooms and polyps) or cutting a small piece of an established coral off (called fragging) and letting it grow on another rock.

I knew they sold their Damsels that way, unfortunately way too many places do it like that. It really is inhumane.

The LAST thing you need at this point is more fish. More fish will most likely = more dead fish. More live rock is always good, but if you are going to get more then you are going to get more (probably very high) ammonia spikes because of it. You might want to consider curing it first (it could have what some people consider "undesirable creatures". eg. Mantis Shrimp (which aren't really shrimp) and crabs and curing it will help to rid you of them. I know it's tempting to just go out and buy stuff, but the only thing that happens fast in a reef tank is a meltdown. Patience, patience, patience. It really does pay to do some research before you just go out and buy something. Good luck with your tank, *AND GET THAT TEST KIT!!!* :)

[killroysrevenge]

Damsels!!! I hate em. I will tell that story later. You only needed 2 damsels. If that many. I am sure that the sudden amonia spike killed your fish and will probably continue to do so. Your water is probably like windex. Just hang in there if they wont take the fish back. Maybe no more will die.

[Dragcrab]

This morning another Green Chromis was dead...and when I got home from school...yet another had fallen to the floor. All the rest of my fish seem to be doing fine. The Chromis that did die all seemed to start acting weird...and sitting close to the bottom of the tank. They didn't seem to interested in eating, and weren't trying to school. Now I am down to 1, and it seems to be acting fine. But who knows what those damsels are gonna do to it.

I checked my salidity, and its at 1.021. Temp is still 78degrees. Looks like some sort of calcium build up on the glass. It is chalky white..and doesn't wipe off very easily "using brush that came with filter". The only problem with not buying fish from this store is...it is the only one in the city where I live. If anyone knows of any aquarium/fish stores in Eugene OR, please let me know. I've checked the yellow pages...and came up blank.

The people at the store told me they cure the live rock before selling it. They told me this after I asked them about the Mantis Shrimp. They assured me no parasites would be living in these live rock after being cured.

Well thanks again for more info. I guess I'll just see what happends in the near future, and I'll pick up that test kit as soon as possible.

[on_fire_8]

I would say that you would be safe buying live rock from them. Just smell it, if is smells like rotten eggs it is not cured. As far as livestock goes, you could purchase it on www.saltwaterfish.com. However, please do much research before purchasing anything. Ask people on the board lots of questions about the needs of the specific species you want to buy. Such as diet, compatablity, and how hardy they are.

[Samurai]

Even pre-cured live rock will go through a die back when you put it into your tank and as a result will give your tank an ammonia spike. Your calcium build up is probably due to really hard water. About the only way to get around that is to get a reverse osmosis unit. I have really hard water too :(. It's not the worst thing in the world. Just keep on top of it. I wrote a post about how to get it off of your tank- it's in the DIY forum I think. Online fish stores are always an option- so you don't HAVE to go back to that worthless fish store. Good idea about that test kit :wink:.

[on_fire_8]

Even pre-cured live rock will go through a die back when you put it into your tank and as a result will give your tank an ammonia spike.

If the rock at the store is fully cured it will not have a rotten egg smell. Unless you live several miles from you LFS it will not have enough die off to cause a ammonia spike. I have never had a ammonia spike from fully cured live rock from a LFS that was within a 1/2 an hour from me.

[Samurai]

I've never noticed the "rotten egg smell", but some die off IS going to happen pretty much no matter what. That die off will result in an increase in ammonia (things are going to die when exposed to the air, dead things are going to decompose). So even though it might not be a huge increase, there will be an increase. Besides a lot of people don't live within 30 minutes of their lfs- I don't. And with a lot of lr there is going to be even more die off.

[on_fire_8]

I was not trying to cause trouble. I live 15 minutes from the LFS. When I put in rock from there it does not show a readable amount of ammonia when I test it. However samauri makes a good point in the simple fact that it is better to be safe rather than sorry. As far as the rotten egg smell, that is what the die off smells like, when you cure your own live rock you will become very familiar with this smell. LOL :lol:

[Samurai]

I wasn't trying to cause trouble either and I really do believe you on_fire. There is just so much ammonia in that tank as it is, that the health of the fish are already in jeopardy. He might not livee 30 minutes away from his lfs and there is the potential for a large spike. I wouldn't buy anything that wasn't necessary from that lfs anyways. From what I've heard they don't deserve anyones business.

[on_fire_8]

Point well made. Good job Samurai. :mrgreen:

[Dragcrab]

The live rock did have a foul smell to it. I live about 15-20 mins from my lfs.

[on_fire_8]

I would say if you are mid way through your cycle, which I believe you are, now would be the best time to add live rock. Although it may not help your fish situation now. However it would be better to do it now, then when you do it with a fully stocked already cycled tank. JMO

[Samurai]

I agree with on_fire (and I'm not just trying to kiss his butt :lol:), if you wait 'till later to put more live rock in your tank may re-cycle and your fish will have to go through ammonia and nitrite spikes all over again. Just curious Dragcrab, how much does your lfs charge for Damsels and live rock? I guess that if your live rock had a bad smell to it, then it was not fully cured. This store gets worse all the time. Also where is the live rock from?

[BigFish]

you should take the fish back to your lfs, then cure your live rock, and if you have real live sand cure it too. Then add all of the sand and rock into the tank add RO/DI water (of coarse you mix in the salt first) and add any suplements you think are needed Ie Alk and calcium. Then buy a cheap shrimp mabe 10 or 15 ghost shrimps they are small but should be fine to cycle your tank, now wait for all nitrate and such to drop then go back and buy ! or two damsels then wait a week or two and take the damsels back(or keep them if you want) and start addding fish. This is the way I wih I would have done my tank :mrgreen: but I didn't so I cant say much. Just an Idea you might as well do it right the first time :mrgreen: While you still can :roll:

[Dragcrab]

Damsels cost $4.50 a piece, and live rock is 7$ per lb on sale.

Not sure where the live rock is from. I guess I'll have to ask next time I'm there.

I already have 20lbs of live sand, and about 16-17 lbs of live rock. You think I should put more in it now?

[Samurai]

Depends on whether or not you want a deep sand bed. I'm not going to get into that (very controversial), if you want you can do a search on it- tons of stuff will come up (both on the web and on ReefLounge). I have to disagree about using anything living to cycle a tank with, it can be done humanely with a cocktail shrimp from your grocery store.

The lfs prices aren't as bad as I thought they would be, but you might do better online. A lot of people like www.saltwaterfish.com and www.liveaquaria.com.

[BigFish]

good point about the coctail shrimp I never even thought of that, but they were killed too and have been processed do they really work? I guess it is probably more humain to have a dead shrimp in bad tank conditions then it is to have a live shrimp in bad conditions.

Hey Dragcrab no offense but just because a damsel costs only $4.95 does not mean you should torture 10 of them at a time all you need is one :!:

Sorry I dont mean to offend you but.......why did you overload your tank like that so fast. You should take tham all back and check out this for live rock it is only $1.95 plus $1.50 for shipping per pound that beats $7 that sight also has a good diy for curing live rock :mrgreen:
http://www.etropicals.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=44&pCatId=1359

[Samurai]

good point about the coctail shrimp I never even thought of that, but they were killed too and have been processed do they really work? I guess it is probably more humain to have a dead shrimp in bad tank conditions then it is to have a live shrimp in bad conditions.

That was my reasoning- it was going to be eaten anyways. Yes they really work and no don't use processed shrimp. Raw, unshelled shrimp. Processed might work too. It's cheaper to go with a raw, unshelled shrimp and it really does work. Worked for me 8).

Hey Dragcrab no offense but just because a damsel costs only $4.95 does not mean you should torture 10 of them at a time all you need is one :!:

Sorry I dont mean to offend you but.......why did you overload your tank like that so fast. You should take tham all back and check out this for live rock it is only $1.95 plus $1.50 for shipping per pound that beats $7 that sight also has a good diy for curing live rock :mrgreen:
http://www.etropicals.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=44&pCatId=1359

He just didn't know. It's mostly the lfs' fault. Everyone has made dumb mistakes before- at least he's trying to make it right. Dragcrab... see what I mean about getting things online? I think the only stipulation to that is that you have to order $30 worth of it, but that might be a $30 total order. Getting things online is something that a lot of people are skeptical about though, so you might want to ask some people that HAVE ordered online and see how they felt about it. Matrixnyc has a poll going about it.

[BigFish]

Samurai,
its actually $29.99 :lol: jk but that is b4 S&H but even a small tank has to have more than 15lbs of rock :mrgreen:

I was not trying to be mean , I have made more than my fair share of mistakes for example I bought my first(and only) clam when I had no florecents the guy at my lfs just wanted to sell it he said it would do great :mrgreen: needless to say it lived mabe 2 weeks :cry: never trust a store unless you try to buy at least one thing you know is bad for your tank and they say no you cant keep that. Most stores that refuse the ocasional sale are a bit more expensive though. But it is better to pay more and trust than to pay less with no trust when yoou are starting this hobbie :mrgreen:

[killroysrevenge]

My advise is if you go to the LFS and see something that you want. Go home, research it, ask yourself ?s like can my tank keep it alive, and then buy it online. It is easier to compare prices online.

Online is usualy cheaper and fresher.

Ex. I wanted a Fluval 204 for a 10 gal hex (seahorse tank). I went to the LFS and it was $130. I said "WHAT!!!" (I got my 304 for free at a raffle, actually my girlfriend won it. Now she is my wife to be. Hey gotta love her after that.) I looked in a online catalog that I have and found it for $65, That is after shipping.

[Dragcrab]

Man I wish I would have found this site earlier! Oh well. So about $3.50 per lb for LR on the internet? Dang...that seems like a much better deal than the $7 I pay now for rotten egg LR.

The last Greem Chromis is still alive today. My big domino is still being a punk, but the other fish are faster than him. When the light is off, everyone chills out, but when the light is on....they seem to want to fight. Is there a specific time I want to have the light on? To possibly simulate day/night?

I agree with you BigFish...having 10 fish in that size aquarium is bad. I didn't know before hand...and if anyone in Oregon wants some...let me know. Hopefully all goes well this week with the fish. I plan on picking up a tester this week as well.

[on_fire_8]

Ideally you want 2lbs of lr per gal. If you are going to order it online (which there is nothing wrong with this other than you dont get to hand pick the pcs) You are going to need some time for it to cure. I would say take back the damsels because they will not live through the curing process. If it seems like you are completly starting over, remember thats OK, if you hadnt found this site you probably would have given up after awhile. We all make mistakes, just learn from the ones you make.

[Dragcrab]

Well, yesterday my last Green Chromis died. He was a soldier...and lasted a whole 5 days in there.

[Dragcrab]

Well, yesterday my last Green Chromis died. He was a soldier...and lasted a whole 5 days in there.