DEATH TANK CONTINUES.....

[VNVixen]

* When you started the tank = Nov 2002
* Tank size =18H
* Current Filteration =Prizm Protein Skimmer, powerhead
* ENTIRE fish population =0 fish, 4snails, 3 crabs, star polyps, 3 mushrooms, some tiny feather duster type things have grown on their own, I didnt put those in the tank
* What you feed, and how often =frzn brine shrimp every other day, "Primordial Soup" every other day
* Your maintenance routine (water changes, vacuming substrate, etc.) 50%h2o change 1x per month, unless water test indicate I need other wise
* ALL water parameters you can give (Temp, pH, GH, KH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, calcium, copper, phosphate, and anything else)

Tested every3 days.
Temp=80
salinity=1.023
Alk=3.8-4
pH=8
kh=12
NH3/NH4=0
NO2=>0.3
CL2=0
CA=450
PO4=>0.05

* What fish(s) are sick everything keeps dying!!!!
* What it looks like dead
* Any other info on the fish/coral/invert

I use RO water and premix water for water changes at least a week in advance in a rubbermaid tub and circulate it with a powerhead. I use straight RO water for top offs.
I have 2 19" JBJ power compact lamp, each is a 36watt, with 50/50 bulbs.
I keep records of my testing on a spread sheet, so the following is based on those records.

I will start at the beginning. I have posted my problem before, but I wanted to update and see if anyone has any new ideas.
I set up the tank and let it sit for a month (November). After a month I added live rock (fiji=15lbs on 12/1/02). Rock turned purple, everything was great (december 12/21/02). Added green star polyps, caulerpa, mushrooms, small sinularia(sp?), 5 snails, 5 crabs (1/11/03). Everything was great for about a week. Things went downhill from there. Over the course of 3 weeks, these things happened: Sinlaria(sp?) shriveled up and detached from rock. Polyps closed wouldnt open. Shrooms didnt open all the way. Caulerpa died off completely. Lost 1 crab and 1 snail.
Water tests indicated the following:
-CA was too low at 350; started to dose kalk (1/21). CA went up to 400, but things were still sick. Was told to not use kalk because my ph was high and my alk was high and the kalk did that. I didnt dose anything for about a week and then switched to B-Ionic (only the CA solution part). Now CA is at a steady 450 with the use of B-Ionic.
-Ph was up to 8.4 (1/23 - 1/24) at one point, but has been down at 8 steady since 1/25.
-May ALK has always been high. My test only goes upto 3.6, and that is where it always is.
-A guy at the lfs told be I needed to put iodine in the tank. I did dose iodine for 3 days, until I received the lecture on NOT TO ADD ANY CHEMICALS TO YOUR TANK UNLESS YOU HAVE A WAY TO TEST IT!!! I just recieved my iodine test, but have yet to calibrate and use it.
-Another guy at another lfs suggested that I might have an electrical current in my water. I replaced my powerhead and my heater for a new one just to be safe.
-no bug spray, no chemicals used around the tank, no carpet shampoo, I dont smoke, I dont use lotion before I stick my hands in the tank, etc.

:D Light at the end of the tunnel.At the end of January, my water became completley stable. For the whole month of Feb, my water has been perfect. The star polyp are open!!! The mushrooms are open!!!! The crabs and snails do there thing. I was sooooo happy, I bought a damsil for my birthday last saturday.
It was eating at the store, I watched it feed before I bought it. It was eating here. It ate last night prior to me going to bed. This morning, the fish and another snail were dead!!!!! I GIVE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There were no indications of stress or violence on the bodies.
I immediately tested all my water parameters. Again... everything is perfect (see above readings).

Here are my questions:
Is there some sort of toxin that I am not looking for that could solve this problem?
Is there some sort of parasite that could do this?
What am I not seeing that is sooo stressful in my tank?
My substrate is crushed coral sand, should I remove it all and add live sand???


I am at a loss, emotionally and now $$$$... I am about the scrap the whole project. I need opinions. If anyone can help, please let me know.
Thank you for reading this WHOLE thing.

[Lahatiel]

This may not mean anything, but perhaps try performing smaller water changes more often. Changing 50% at a time can be very stressful on your inhabitants. More often than not it changes the water temp dramitically for one thing. Just a thought.

Also, might want to get that PH to 8.2 or 8.3. Because most will feel that 8.0 is kinda low for reef keeping.

[Chryocon]

That all is good advice but that is not what is killing her creatures off....I have nom idea as to what could be doing it unless it was a predater, but you stated no physical injuries.....also I could see some things killing the fish.....but the snails I have no idea about, are you sure to me that there is nothing else in the tank because it sounds like a territorial issue to me....that is the only thing I can think of that would cause something to kill something with no physical damage and affect snails and fish, since this happens whenver you put a new fish in, this "might" be that case...

[Samurai]

Are you buying all of your fish from the same place? If so they may have been caught using the cyanide method. This is a longshot, but still very possible. Also how long are you acclimating your fish to the tank. I agree with the smaller more frequent water changes, in addition to being easier they also help keep water parameters more stable. Did you see any fish dying? If so how did they die? Were they breathing hard or swimming funny? Did you buy the tank new? Something could be leeching into the water from the silicone sealant. With no physical damage to the fish I don't think that it was a predator, more likely it's the result of an unbalanced tank. DON'T GIVE UP THOUGH! In the past week I have had four new Tetras die on me- two of them today (partly the pet stores fault). I know that it's a bummer to lose animals, but when you keep them healthy the rewards are worth it. Don't throw in the towell yet, you might have a simple problem and it would be a shame to quit the hobby because of a simple problem.

[phistio]

then why would snails die...and the fish...

and we ruled out copper...(she said she's never used it before).

do you think it it has anything to do with using the moss in the previous freshwater setup?

also, i'm not going to suggest that you do or don't change your substrate...it's a personal preference...i have a shallow sand bed, and prefer it...but really, it's apples to oranges.

[Lahatiel]

A simple freshwater example of how some of my freshwater fish died:

I changed too much water at one time...boom 5 scissor tails dead in less than an hour. Did I change that much again? No sir, never again.

[RazerCorals]

Well I have seen a picture of your tank and everything appeared to be fine at the time. The Caulerpa you bought, what type was it?

[RazerCorals]

OK I ruled out the caulerpa. When you dose the calcium are you making sure to get only the middle part, not the top and bottom regions?

[reefrunner]

Could we have a list of what died? in what order. I think you got more than one thing going on here. Do you hear any clicking at night?

[reefrunner]

The star polyp are open!!! The mushrooms are open!!!! The crabs and snails do there thing.

One more thing...how did they look after the fish was discovered? Were they still open?

[Thorkot]

Are the problems all happening at night? If so it could be lack of O2 in the water causing the pH to drop off in the night. Do you have any current at the top of the water? If you angle a powerhead up to create some waves it would help with Oxygen concentrations.

[BigFish]

its got to be either water change or a crab of some type in your lr or bolth, thats my opinion but mabe not :idea: I recomend you add a cheap fish ie a damsel and watch the tank for a few hours when the lights are all off even the ones in the room! this will prob show you your problem most little preditors in the lr come out at night

I sound mean for wanting to kill a damsel but I hate mine Im considering going to the post office and sending it to alaska on ground I really hate damsels :evil: but my mom wont let me get rid of it :cry:

by the way I live in az so ground to alaska is like 2 weeks :mrgreen:

for any of you who have not seen any of my other posts I am just kidding about the damsel (but he is a pain in the butt) plz dont call peta on me :D

[VNVixen]

WOW!!! Thank you everyone for your posts!!!! I am going to start my replies working from top to bottom.
Here is my plan. I am going to try “grounding cables”, which would remove ANY electrical current in the tank, if it is there. My lfs sells them for $16.99. I will do less and more frequent water changes. I will raise the pH if someone will tell me how to do it with out an alk buffer. If that doesn’t work….I am going to remove ALL my substrate. If that doesn’t work…I’ll give up. Please read all the replies and, and for more back ground, please feel free to read my previous post regarding these issue in the “I need help” forum, post titled “Total System Failure”

Lahatiel- I can definitely do more water changes. I was under the impression that live rock works as an excellent filter, and that only monthly water changes and weekly top offs were required. I breed freshwater angelfish that need REALLY clean water, and Discus who need water changes every 2 days, so 1 more tank to do a weekly water change on is no big whoop.
I was also concerned about my pH being low, however, when I brought it up in a chat room, several participants said that their pH readings were the same and for me not to worry. My question is, what can I do to raise my pH that WON’T raise the alk???

Chryocon-I am sure there is nothing else in the tank. I am a night owl on the weekends, and I am up late on the puter, same room where the tank is. Also, my BF doesn’t go to bed ‘til 3 am most nights, and he hasn’t seen anything. I have on occasion looked at the tank for a few minutes with out any lights on in the room, except the glow from the monitors. I have never seen anything in the tank I did not put in there, with the exception of the growth of feather dusters. I don’t know what kind of predator could cause these things to happen either, but I would think it would have to be a large enough “thing” to physically see or it is a chemical thing.

Samurai-I bought all my live rock and scavengers from one place, and the damsel last weekend at another. Both are salt water stores, not Petsmart or anything. I asked the lfs if they know weather or not cyanide was used and they said no. It is a good guess, but, everything was fine for a brief period when first put in the tank. Wouldn’t everything have shown signs of stress while at the lfs if cyanide were used? Acclimation for me is a long time, about 2 hours. I made a big deal out of it, and my bf called me melodramatic because I was so anal about it. (Please see my reply to Lahatiel about the water changes). I did not see any fish dying. The only real fish that has been in the tank was the 1 damsel I bought last Saturday that was fine last night for feeding and dead this morning. It did not show any signs of stress, it seemed fine. The tank is not new. It is about 3 years old, and previously housed a breeding pair of angelfish. (No I did not use copper). Water is the freshwater tank was RO water, which was drained over peat moss to achieve “Black water”. I won’t bore you with the details, but because there was fry in there, no meds were ever added. Just the water. (ps…neon’s are really delicate fish. You don’t give up either)

Phistio- ahh, my good friend. Always there when I am in a panic! I have a few things up my sleeve to try. If they don’t work, I will try removing the substrate.

Watchman- Grape caulerpa. Sniff, sniff. All dead. And I am not dosing kalk anymore, just the B-Ionic. When I did you kalk, I would use the middle water, and I got it out with a turkey baster (thx Zack!!!!)

Reefrunner-
List of the dead in order.
1) Sinularia
2) Snail
3) Hermit crab
4) Caulerpa
5) Damsel and snail together
Umm, not clicking, of course my filter is REALLY loud. (I don not suggest a Prizm to light sleepers. The thing drives me crazy!) Again, I haven’t seen anything in the tank either. In regards to how they looked, the polyps were open, and the shrooms were taking there time about opening. They never open as fast as the polyps.

Thorkot- I have tested my O2 levels with the lights off too. Usually I do all my testing in the mornings around 2 hours after the lights cycle on. However, I read how things change at night when the lights were out, so I had to see for myself. O2 did not change. I used the “TetraTest” O2 test. I do have a power head, and it is aimed right at the surface to create the most surface tension. This is a small tank, on an 18H (that is like 2 10 gallon tanks on top each other). O you think another power head would be good, or TOO much current? I am all for more O2 if I can get it.

BigFish- MY MAN!!! I shop at Ocean Floor and Aquarium Arts. I like the fish at Arts better, but the quality of the polyps and stuff is better at Ocean Floor. We should get coffee sometime…..p.s. I’ll take the damsel ;) j/k

[Samurai]

Wow I wish everyone's replies were that nice. I took my last two living Tetras back to PetSmart. I think they sold me one with Tetra Disesase and it spread around the tank :evil:. So until I get that tank sorted out I'm only going to use it for plants. Best of luck in sorting it all out and btw the grounding cables are an excellent idea :).

[phistio]

yeah...i have to agree...a grounding probe could be a step in the right direction. i've heard horror stories of how a slight curretn of electricity often wipes out tanks.

best of luck!!! :wink:

(i've contantly been thinking about the demise of your tank since we all had the chat...i even asked a few close friends...we all did the same thing...looked like a couple of monkeys at the primate wing of lincoln park zoo...scratchin' our knoggins.) :lol:

[reefrunner]

Reefrunner-
List of the dead in order.
1) Sinularia
2) Snail
3) Hermit crab
4) Caulerpa
5) Damsel and snail together
Umm, not clicking, of course my filter is REALLY loud. (I don not suggest a Prizm to light sleepers. The thing drives me crazy!) Again, I haven’t seen anything in the tank either. In regards to how they looked, the polyps were open, and the shrooms were taking there time about opening. They never open as fast as the polyps.

Well...seeing the list...it is not nearly so bad as it seems. While I certainly understand your frustration.....the fact that the polyps and shrooms weren't affected gives hope. We can be pretty sure it is not a toxin or water quality. (I'd like to point out we will never really know what did your stuff in...unless we can get a serious clue...like you ALK was 112 meq/L and the tank water would burn the skin off your hand :roll: ) With that said...I'll offer my opinions (loose opinions) of what has happened to your tank.

1) Sinularia - you started with one bulb...then went to two. How did you acclimate to the new bulb? My guess inadequate light coupled with photoshock.
2) Snail - they die, sometimes unexplainably. They are very sensitive to temp and salinity changes, also mobile inverts(like snails) are adversly affected by lower salinity. Your SG is 1.023 @ 80* as water gets warmer the sg is lower to maintain a 35ppt salinity. I would slowly bring it up to 1.025 @ 80*. 1.023 would be a decent SG for 84*F Another guess is a mantis shrimp (they appreciate some escargot)
3) Hermit crab - molt?? mantis?? starvation??
4) Caulerpa - in adequate light?? not enough nutrients??
5) Damsel and snail together - mantis?? shock (coincidence that they both died at the same time??


To address the water change issue...I agree in a smaller tank like that. You should do more frequent waterchanges. I change 2.5g per week on a 20g tank. Water quality can degrade in a small tank in a short space of time. You may never even know, cause we have do not have the ability to test for every element in the water that impacts the health of our fish an.

[VNVixen]

Everyone, read my new post "Death Tank Problem Solved"

Thanks again for everything.